I'm glad you cleared it up for yourself!
JB
JB
Which species and neutral zone did Kirk face in his Kobayashi Maru
- Thread starter Yistaan
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When did Occam's Razor get so dull? The simplest answer is usually the right one.
Fandom as far back as the 70s accepted a neutral zone between Federation and Klingon space. A lot of 70s Franz Joseph Fandom made its way into those early movies.
Even without the fandom knowledge, it's only in the age of internet debate have I encountered such a convoluted idea.
Yes, Romulans used Klingon design. It was a surprise in Enterprise Incident but well known by TWOK. The scenario was crossing the neutral zone to rescue the ship. The trainees knew where in space they were and what border they were crossing. Dialog states Klingon ships. Computer identification, not a mistaken identification from a trainee.
For dramatic storytelling purposes a line would have been inserted letting the viewers know if said Klingon ships were in Romulan territory. Especially since the first thought uttered would have been "why are Klingons defending Romulan space?"
Gamma Hydra was near Romulan space in TOS Deadly Years. I believe the original intent was the KM to be in Romulan territory but the re-use of the TMP footage altered the idea (justified by Harve Bennet stating Klingons were the more common Federation adversary). Occam's Razor implies the simplest answer is Gamma Hydra passed under Klingon control.
Umm, you seem to be talking about Trump's Razor here. The simplest answer is never the right one in the real world.
Ol' Occam phrased it a bit differently, but he was still talking out of his ass, assigning mystical qualities to the elegance of simplicity. Every answer is full of assumptions, typically the sum total of assumptions made by mankind up till that point. Being blind to those assumptions doesn't help with giving right answers, but it doesn't necessarily hinder, either. Razors like that are simply irrelevant.
If it's good for the goose... The UFP seems to believe in Neutral Zones. Assuming they have one with the Klingons is fine and well, then. Although not "the simplest" by any definition.
Funnily enough, it wasn't a surprise even in the TOS episode - Spock knew, he just didn't deem it fit to tell Kirk! No doubt there's a perfectly logical reason for that. But it won't be "simple".
And apparently surprise is supposed to be a factor here. After all, the scenario is about observing how the students deal with the impossible - but if the scenario is based on well-established facts, there's a textbook way for dealing with the scenario, because Starfleet would have written that book in order to cope with these facts out there in the field. Yet we don't see textbook here: different students come up with different solutions, and in the end, none of them matter because the test is not about the solutions.
So the truth value of the scenario is dubious at very best. And probably would be the more counterproductive, the greater.
Defending space? No, they are there to ambush poor Saavik. In the famous words of Admiral Ackbar...
Gamma Hydra keeps "changing" all right: in DSC, it's an Andorian colony, in TOS, the target of an expedition led by humans. In the former, it's six lightyears from Klingon-claimed space, in the latter, it's next to the RNZ.
The "simplest" answer would have it be next to everybody. Not particularly difficult in 3D space. But that completely ignores the real issue, which is that it cannot be next to everybody. In TOS, say, there are no Andorians to help out the poor aging expedition leader, or anybody to help out the Andorians. In TWoK, there is no mention of the Romulans or the Andorians. So fuck "simple" - we need a string of offscreen adventures to explain where everybody went.
Or then we can do the only truly simple thing and declare, like Occam would have us do, that "a wizard did it". That is, the simulation is all fake, and has no strings attached.
But where's the fun in that?
Timo Saloniemi
The Kobyashi Maru does not need a neutral zone in order to be an effective test. The Enterprise in the simulation actually crossed into a region of space it ws forbidden to enter due to treaty. So, theoretically, any region of space were a Starfleet vessel is forbidden to enter would suffice.
Or any "balance" situation where it might be unwise to risk doing anything to help those in need, out of fear of causing more damage than good. Risking lives in the hopes of saving lives is apparently not wrong per Starfleet rules, and might even be encouraged: those turning back might be evaluated poorly. But the student must at some point realize that the risks are real, and that backfiring is always a possibility. Going for "victory" in the circumstances might be evaluated poorly, too, while yielding gracefully and minimizing your losses might be the best possible outcome.
That we often hear of the Kobayashi Maru distress and neutral zones in connection with the no-win scenario need not be statistical evidence that this would actually be common. After all, it's a Kirk thing. In two cases, Kirk confronts the Kobayashi Maru. In the third, he himself sets up the simulation for students, perhaps asking Spock to select the Kobayashi Maru version this rare once for old times' sake, to celebrate his birthday. (He might have found the equally famous Kelvin test a bit too gloomy that day, despite it also being appropriate.)
Timo Saloniemi
That we often hear of the Kobayashi Maru distress and neutral zones in connection with the no-win scenario need not be statistical evidence that this would actually be common. After all, it's a Kirk thing. In two cases, Kirk confronts the Kobayashi Maru. In the third, he himself sets up the simulation for students, perhaps asking Spock to select the Kobayashi Maru version this rare once for old times' sake, to celebrate his birthday. (He might have found the equally famous Kelvin test a bit too gloomy that day, despite it also being appropriate.)
Timo Saloniemi
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