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Where's the next generation of women writers?

Susan Shwartz, not "Shwartz,"

It looks like getting names right in all contexts is still a strong instinct with you too. :p

Yeah, definitely. That was even on special request by her publisher, since young boys tend not to read YA fiction by women in as high of numbers even when they're the target audience for the book.

That's sad, that such attitudes still exist.

I have to wonder, though -- is that really the case, or is it just an artificial rule that marketers assume to be the case? In the toy industry, there's this long-standing prejudice that girls aren't interested in action toys and that boys won't buy female action figures, but if you talk to actual kids, you find it isn't true -- it's a myth that the marketers created and imposed on the industry, often to the frustration of the actual children who'd welcome more flexibility.

You know, I'm not actually sure. It does look like males are already a small segment of the YA book demos in general as it stands (that chart taken from a presentation at the Bologna Children's Book Fair in 2013), but I can't find any actual crosstabs based on either age or author's gender to back up the claim. From the same presentation, it also looks like teen boys are just less interested in books in general than teen girls overall.
 
Susan Shwartz, not "Shwartz,"

It looks like getting names right in all contexts is still a strong instinct with you too. :p

Oops. I guess it is second nature for me now. Let me fix that.

(Although I confess I double-checked the correct spelling of Edghill.)

As for the initials thing, the flip side of that is male writers who use feminine pseudonyms when writing romance novels, on the assumption that romance readers won't buy novels by George Smith or whomever..
 
It looks like getting names right in all contexts is still a strong instinct with you too. :p

Oops. I guess it is second nature for me know. Let me fix that.

(Although I confess I double-checked the correct spelling of Edghill.)

(You might want to double-check that edit. :p)

Damn. I'm really not on my game today. (A bit of a migraine, actually, and impending house guests.)
 
Schwarz is German for black. You make me misspell it as Schwartz or Shwarz next time I have to write it down. ;). Autocorrection is my best friend.
 
Yeah, definitely. That was even on special request by her publisher, since young boys tend not to read YA fiction by women in as high of numbers even when they're the target audience for the book.

That's sad, that such attitudes still exist.

I have to wonder, though -- is that really the case, or is it just an artificial rule that marketers assume to be the case? In the toy industry, there's this long-standing prejudice that girls aren't interested in action toys and that boys won't buy female action figures, but if you talk to actual kids, you find it isn't true -- it's a myth that the marketers created and imposed on the industry, often to the frustration of the actual children who'd welcome more flexibility.

You know, I'm not actually sure. It does look like males are already a small segment of the YA book demos in general as it stands (that chart taken from a presentation at the Bologna Children's Book Fair in 2013), but I can't find any actual crosstabs based on either age or author's gender to back up the claim. From the same presentation, it also looks like teen boys are just less interested in books in general than teen girls overall.

Whether or not Christopher is correct regarding the theory of simple inertia and assumption, regardless of children's actual tendencies (a theory which has merit), the idea of young male readers being potentially put off by a female name isn't too surprising. Growing into manhood is a transition that involves, essentially, the establishment of a distinct conceptual space in order to make a claim at societal worth - an answer to the defining question for all tribal beings: what do you bring to the social group? The answer for a female is obvious; indeed all additional forms of social worth in females have long been considered secondary (with varying degrees on how all-consuming and inflexibly defining the "reproductive bottleneck" identity is). The answer for a male involves finding something to do or to be, ideally something that the womb-bearer can't or isn't as suited for, something that differentiates himself, because males don't have inherent worth to the tribe. In many cultures, boys passing an initiation are physically separated from the rest of the group, to assume a new role and space; a physical distancing alongside a conceptual one. To simplify somewhat, you don't have to be told how to be a woman - biology alone handles that. You do have to be told how to be a man. The idea that boys might, as a rule general enough to have an observable effect on choice of authors, be leery of taking such instruction from a non-man shouldn't be surprising. Make no mistake, what a child is doing when they read is growing into their later identity, and like selecting subjects of study in the later years of school there will be consequences if you choose the wrong path. On that point, there's the fact that societies in general, unsurprising given their utilitarian needs and insecurities, are leery of loosening the parameters of the traditional male roles when compared to the female, as without the ability to exploit or shame a standard of manhood a society's capacity to keep itself laboured and its institutions functioning in the manner to which it has become accustomed is curtailed. The possible need for boys to differentiate into an established and unquestioningly male identity (to whatever degree it is innate and/or a consequence of adaptation to inevitable societal pressures - pressures that are going to be there whatever certain people claim they dislike differentiated gender roles or not*) is analogous in some way to the need of a youth of either sex to break away from their parents and assert their own identity. If a boy is not pushing away from the female, he cannot differentiate from it, and thus cannot be of use to, or attractive to, the feminine or society as a whole. And despite the claims of ideologues, society - including, 9 times out of 10, those very ideologues - will be judging him on this, because it's how the tribal model works. To whatever degree the boys-women writers thing is a factor, it isn't surprising.

* It doesn't matter how much Literature students natter on about the contributions to the culture, etc., if it doesn't help you find a job and make a wage, it's a poor choice even if you quite like studying Literature.

As for names, authors in many genres adopt either the other sex or androgynous names to suit the genre and its intended audience, and even if we assume that there is no "boys leery of women writers" effect (a potentially big if), adventure stories, thrillers, etc., fall on the "male" side of the stereotypical line - again, whether actual interest or readership reflects that (I suspect, particularly among children and based on my own experiences with them, the divide isn't that much in evidence.).

As a possible point of interest building on the body of my post up there, I've also seen what I might even call a clumsy and largely ideology-driven effort to encourage boys to show interest in "girly" things; I distrust this and find it counter-productive, since it always locates "the problem" within boys and not within everyone's later expectations and demands on them, and so can be considered, in my mind, borderline abusive, even when it isn't accompanied by tiresome attempts at demonization.

Children will like what they like, and saying that they are Wrong, Wrong, Wrong for doing so - whether it's because they're not being stereotypical or because they are being stereotypical, is not, in my mind, to be at all encouraged.

As a final note, since her name came up, I miss Heather Jarman. Among her many contributions, she defined the Nasat, lest we forget. P8 Blue is rather a role-model of mine, really, come to think of it, and it's because of what Jarman did with her.
 
Contrary to other people's opinion I liked all the Cristie Golden novels.

Vulcan's Heart and Vulcan's Forge by Josepha Sherman and Susan Shwartz (hopefully not misspelled) were really a highlight, much better than their contribution to the Tales of the Dominion War.

No, you got Shwartz right. Congratulations. That gets misspelled a lot.

Back in the day, at Tor Books, I fought a never-ending battle to make sure certain authors' names were spelled right. Tony Daniel, not "Daniels," Susan Shwartz, not "Schwartz," Rosemary Edghill, not "Edgehill," etc.

It could be a struggle sometimes. :)

A battle lost by S&S on 50% of my publications with them. :borg:
 
Heather Jarman's andor novel started all that repro crisis guff didn't it?

No; I don't remember if it was mentioned before Mission Gamma, but it was definitely in that series long before it was in Paradigm.

Just jumping in here - Heather may have been chosen to develop and explicate the Andorian situation in This Gray Spirit and Paradigm, but it was definitely present in the books going all the way back to Avatar, in the form of Shar's characterisation. His admiration for Ro and Nog and their refusal to follow cultural norms; his discomfort when Bashir asks if he is married yet; his argument with his mother overheard by Dax in Demons. So while the women may have written the stories, the idea behind the storyline came from Marco, extrapolating from the canon information that Andorians marry in fours.

.
 
I'm gonna go with a lot of other people on here and say that I miss Heather Jarman and S.D. Perry, they both wrote some great books.
I wouldn't mind seeing more women writing Trek Lit. There do seem to be a lot of women Trek fans, so it is kind of surprising that we don't see more female Trek authors.
 
Yeah, definitely. That was even on special request by her publisher, since young boys tend not to read YA fiction by women in as high of numbers even when they're the target audience for the book.

That's sad, that such attitudes still exist.

I have to wonder, though -- is that really the case, or is it just an artificial rule that marketers assume to be the case?

I think so. I know a female writer who does SF & fantasy; her first couple of novels came out with her full name on the cover, but for later books the publisher made her use the "two initials" thing for so-called marketing reasons. But as far as I know, it didn't make any change in her sales figures...
 
Yeah, definitely. That was even on special request by her publisher, since young boys tend not to read YA fiction by women in as high of numbers even when they're the target audience for the book.

That's sad, that such attitudes still exist.

I have to wonder, though -- is that really the case, or is it just an artificial rule that marketers assume to be the case?

I think so. I know a female writer who does SF & fantasy; her first couple of novels came out with her full name on the cover, but for later books the publisher made her use the "two initials" thing for so-called marketing reasons. But as far as I know, it didn't make any change in her sales figures...

I'm curious: Does she write YA or children's books? Because I wasn't aware that was still an issue in adult science fiction publishing, what with Lois McMaster Bujold and Cherie Priest and Seanan McGuire and others being big sellers.
 
I know a female writer who does SF & fantasy; her first couple of novels came out with her full name on the cover, but for later books the publisher made her use the "two initials" thing for so-called marketing reasons. But as far as I know, it didn't make any change in her sales figures...

I'm not sure if this is the circumstance you're talking about -- Jenny Colgan used "J.T." for the hardcover printing of Dark Horizons, and I was under the impression that was done to not confuse her existing chicklit audience into not expecting her Doctor Who novel to be something that it wasn't.
 
I think so. I know a female writer who does SF & fantasy; her first couple of novels came out with her full name on the cover, but for later books the publisher made her use the "two initials" thing for so-called marketing reasons. But as far as I know, it didn't make any change in her sales figures...

I'm curious: Does she write YA or children's books? Because I wasn't aware that was still an issue in adult science fiction publishing, what with Lois McMaster Bujold and Cherie Priest and Seanan McGuire and others being big sellers.

Nope, not YA stuff.

I'm not sure if this is the circumstance you're talking about -- Jenny Colgan used "J.T." for the hardcover printing of Dark Horizons, and I was under the impression that was done to not confuse her existing chicklit audience into not expecting her Doctor Who novel to be something that it wasn't.

I wasn't referring to Jenny.
 
I know a female writer who does SF & fantasy; her first couple of novels came out with her full name on the cover, but for later books the publisher made her use the "two initials" thing for so-called marketing reasons. But as far as I know, it didn't make any change in her sales figures...

I'm not sure if this is the circumstance you're talking about -- Jenny Colgan used "J.T." for the hardcover printing of Dark Horizons, and I was under the impression that was done to not confuse her existing chicklit audience into not expecting her Doctor Who novel to be something that it wasn't.
I've noticed that quite a few authors who right in multiple genres do that. Seanan Maguire also writes Urban Fantasy under her own name and horror under the name Mira Grant, and James Czajkowski writes thrillers as James Rollins, and fantasy as James Clemens.
 
There are (former) TrekLit authors who use this practice as well when writing in different Genres, Dean Wesley Smith has several pseudonyms if I'm not mistaken, John Vornholt has written at least one ChickLit meets fantasy novel as Caroline Goode, etc.
 
Yeah, definitely. That was even on special request by her publisher, since young boys tend not to read YA fiction by women in as high of numbers even when they're the target audience for the book.

That's sad, that such attitudes still exist.

I have to wonder, though -- is that really the case, or is it just an artificial rule that marketers assume to be the case? In the toy industry, there's this long-standing prejudice that girls aren't interested in action toys and that boys won't buy female action figures, but if you talk to actual kids, you find it isn't true -- it's a myth that the marketers created and imposed on the industry, often to the frustration of the actual children who'd welcome more flexibility.

Often what marketing wants kids to want becomes the reality, however.

I was once buying a computer game and the kid in front of me was buying Disney Infinity dolls with his mother and couldn't make up his mind. The guy behind the counter was making suggestions, and said: "What about Elastigirl?" to which his mother quickly replied: "He doesn't like girls."

"Heh," said the saleperson; "that'll change."

Another anecdotal example from this year was my nephew refusing to see 'Frozen' because it was "a girls' movie". It's part parenting but also there's a lot of cultural push towards sexism.
 
Often what marketing wants kids to want becomes the reality, however.

Not in the case of toy marketing, though. We're seeing more and more stories of young girls expressing frustration with the lack of action and superhero toys marketed to them, even of girls writing to toy companies (or their parents writing on their behalf) to demand more inclusion.


I was once buying a computer game and the kid in front of me was buying Disney Infinity dolls with his mother and couldn't make up his mind. The guy behind the counter was making suggestions, and said: "What about Elastigirl?" to which his mother quickly replied: "He doesn't like girls."

Although, since it came from her and not him, we can't be sure whether that really represents his own tastes or just his mother's assumptions about them.


"Heh," said the saleperson; "that'll change."

How heteronormative of him...


Another anecdotal example from this year was my nephew refusing to see 'Frozen' because it was "a girls' movie". It's part parenting but also there's a lot of cultural push towards sexism.

Yes, and the marketers are right up there leading the push. This hasn't always been so. Up until a few decades ago, toys and comics and children's entertainment products in general were frequently marketed to boys and girls equally. Some toys, like Barbie and G.I. Joe, were tailored for one or the other, but others were meant for both. But modern marketers have bought into all sorts of ideas about targeting specific demographics, and that's created far more segregated product development and promotion than there used to be. They're not just responding to gendered trends, they're creating and amplifying them.
 
Yes, and the marketers are right up there leading the push. This hasn't always been so. Up until a few decades ago, toys and comics and children's entertainment products in general were frequently marketed to boys and girls equally. Some toys, like Barbie and G.I. Joe, were tailored for one or the other, but others were meant for both. But modern marketers have bought into all sorts of ideas about targeting specific demographics, and that's created far more segregated product development and promotion than there used to be. They're not just responding to gendered trends, they're creating and amplifying them.

For another example, there's the relatively notorious recent interview with Paul Dini about how Young Justice was cancelled because the demos leaned too heavily towards girls who supposedly "don't buy toys". According to Dini's comments on his meetings with various executives, the main reason why DC animation's pushed away from serialized shows and towards goofy "randomness" and heavy action is specifically because they want demographics that lean more towards younger boys.
 
^ Which makes me glad we still have the DC Universe Animated Movies, although I haven't seen the last few movies, so could have gone downhill lately.
 
^ Which makes me glad we still have the DC Universe Animated Movies, although I haven't seen the last few movies, so could have gone downhill lately.

They have definitely gone downhill. They're mostly adapting New 52 storylines (and the Arkham video games in one case), some of which are not very good. And they've really started pandering to a 14-year-old boy's idea of mature, sophisticated PG-13 storytelling, which mostly means huge amounts of gore and gratuitous cleavage. I'd initially thought this was because James Tucker took over as producer from Bruce Timm, but Timm's new Justice League: Gods and Monsters seems just the same in that regard. If Cartoon Network cancelled those shows because it didn't want to attract female viewers, then the DC Universe movies are absolutely no better in that regard. They're targeted exclusively at horny teenage boys who think violence is grown-up.
 
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