Where was the TOS engine room?

[F. King Daniel]

Nowadays, thanks to modern Treks most people assume the TOS engine room was in the secondary hull, and that those pipes behind the mesh fence were the warp core. The Star Trek Ency puts in on deck 19. The cutaway from "In a Mirror, Darkly" (and several others online) put it just behind the shuttlebay.
Back in the 70's, Franz Joseph put the engine room at the back of the saucer, saying the pipes were part of the impulse engines.

"Day of the Dove" explicitly states that the secondary hull is cut off, and it's humans vs. Klingons in the saucer. The Klingons quickly seize the engine room, which would seem to confirm that engineering was behind the impulse engines in the primary hull. Later episodes (I can't remember which) had Scotty fixing the dilithium crystals to power the warp engines in the same engine room as "Day of the Dove", indicating it's somewhere in the lower levels.
It can't be both. What do you all think?

 

[Pavonis]

I think it's clear that the engineering section was in the saucer. But then, I think the warp reactor(s) were in the nacelles, not the secondary hull, so I'm not exactly mainstream.

 

[Michael]

What do you all think?

Well, I think a starship the size of the Enterprise has enough room for more than just one engineering section. I suppose the warp drive is powered from the secondary hull, which therefore contains the main part of the engineering section. There's nothing, however, contradicting the existence of serveral engineering rooms all across the ship.

 

[SeerSGB]

I think it's clear that the engineering section was in the saucer. But then, I think the warp reactor(s) were in the nacelles, not the secondary hull, so I'm not exactly mainstream.

IRC, wasn't that Jefferies original intention/concept? That something like the warp-drive needed to be keep as far as possible from the ship's living spaces.

 

[Shaw]

I don't know what you want in the way of an answer...

I can tell you where Matt Jefferies thought it was... The engineering decks were the double height deck level of the secondary hull (deck 16) and the forward bulkhead of the engine room was 177 feet back from the front of the secondary hull and extended back to nearly the forward bulkhead of the hangar bay (225 feet from the front of the secondary hull).

I don't know what Okuda or Drexler think, but Jefferies was pretty explicit about the location (and in my book, it is his ship).



Here is a basic reference to where Jefferies saw the deck levels... And I finally plotted out the position of engineering (rather than attempting to read it from my notes ).

Click to enlarge​

I think I've gotten all this right this time.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Interesting diagram, Shaw. It makes me wonder where the "23" decks number for the TOS Enterprise came from.

I get the feeling the TOS writers didn't really know or care where the engine room was. I guess it doesn't really matter as far as storytelling goes - and as Pavonis wrote, the assumptions about how warp engines worked and were set up were different (and vaguer) back then.

I can get that the Enterprise would have more than one engine room, but not that they would all look 100% identical, especially if one was for the warp drive and the other the impulse engines.

 

[SeerSGB]

Interesting diagram, Shaw. It makes me wonder where the "23" decks number for the TOS Enterprise came from.

I get the feeling the TOS writers didn't really know or care where the engine room was. I guess it doesn't really matter as far as storytelling goes - and as Pavonis wrote, the assumptions about how warp engines worked and were set up were different (and vaguer) back then.

I can get that the Enterprise would have more than one engine room, but not that they would all look 100% identical, especially if one was for the warp drive and the other the impulse engines.

I just thumbed through my copy of "Making of Star Trek" and it puts warp engine in the nacelles.

 

[Maurice]

^^^Engines, not engine room.

 

[SeerSGB]

^^^Engines, not engine room.

Damn it, part of the post got eaten. There was more to it.


MoST also says that the HQ for engineering is in the saucer and that the secondary hull was mostly machine-shops, fuel, food, water reclamation, and is a minimal-crew section of the ship.

 

[Christopher]

Back in the 70's, Franz Joseph put the engine room at the back of the saucer, saying the pipes were part of the impulse engines.

Which annoys me, because he missed the point of the "pipe cathedral" set component, which was tapered in real life but was meant to be a forced-perspective component representing something that stretched out considerably farther (like the similar effect in the TMP engine room). Instead, he took it literally and had it tapered exactly as it was on the soundstage. I prefer the placement in Doug Drexler's cutaway.

"Day of the Dove" explicitly states that the secondary hull is cut off, and it's humans vs. Klingons in the saucer.

No, it doesn't. Nobody in the episode says anything about "the saucer" or "the secondary hull." All they say is:

Captain, reports coming in from the lower decks. Emergency bulkheads have closed. Almost four hundred crewmen are trapped down there, sir.

A graphic in the same episode suggests that the accessible sections do include part of the secondary hull:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x07/dayofdove_156.jpg

And at the end of the episode, we are explicitly shown the evil pinwheel entity emerging from the secondary hull after it passes through the engine room wall.

Also, "The Enemy Within" established that engineering was in "the lower levels" of the ship.

MoST also says that the HQ for engineering is in the saucer and that the secondary hull was mostly machine-shops, fuel, food, water reclamation, and is a minimal-crew section of the ship.

It says more than that about the secondary hull. From pp. 190-1:

The secondary hull is often referred to as the engineering hull, as much of the facilities and activity in this area are devoted to that department.... Minimal crew quarters are located in this hull, used by duty engineers and by the star-drive crew when the saucer has detached and is operating separately.

That tells me that the intent was for most of the engineering activity to go on in the secondary hull, particularly the "star-drive," i.e. warp drive. When the saucer was separated, the warp-drive crew working down in the engineering hull would need temporary quarters during downtime. Its statement about headquarters and control facilities being in the saucer suggests an administrative/control area being separate from the actual lower workings of the engines themselves, which would've taken up most of the secondary hull.

However, TMoST, while useful, is of course superseded by canonical information. We saw that the standard engine room set was in "the lower levels" in "The Enemy Within," and we saw in "Elaan of Troyius" that the same room contains direct access to the dilithium crystals that channel warp power, which wouldn't make any sense if it were in the saucer. So either there are two duplicate engine rooms, each with the same "pipe cathedral" in back (which doesn't make much sense), or the engine room is in the lower levels, period.


Here's a good article about the placement of engineering:

http://www.trekplace.com/article07.html

It offers extensive evidence that the engine room is in the engineering hull near the warp engines, and very little evidence to the contrary.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That is a very nice article. Thanks for the link, Christopher. More than I ever needed to know about TOS engine room(s).

A theory I thought up a few hours ago: If we assume the TOS Enterprise had a TMP-style warp core network (that we just never ever saw), maybe the engine room could be at the back of the saucer, and that thing in the middle of the room (where Scotty wired the dilithium crystals in "Elaan of Troyius") could be the 'cap' at the top of the vertical warp core.

But I'm happy to put the engine room in the engineering hull. It doesn't really matter either way.

 

[Forbin]

To only slightly confuse things more, when the alien entity leaves the ship in Day of the Dove, it's seen exiting the engineering hull forward, below the neck and behind the sensor dish.

This at least tells us the effects guys were briefed that engineering is in the engineering hull, if not exactly where in the engineering hull.

 

[blssdwlf]

If one is willing to count "The Omega Glory" you could just have two (or more) engine rooms and place one each in the primary and engineering hulls

 

[Captain Rob]

I like the idea of two engine rooms. One being the primary with controls for both the impulse and warp engines; and the other just for the warp drive. I still have my set of those 1975 Franz Joseph plans which shows a slightly smaller engine room in the engineering hull where the warp drive connecting struts are. This would be forward and above the shuttle bay. Seems like you could put the big lava lamp there, with the connecting conduit running forward and up the dorsal pylon to the other engine room.

 

[Captain Rob]

As the old saying goes: "just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it's not there." No one ever saw the restroom but we know they've got them. Otherwise they'd have to occassionally open the shuttlebay doors and have a wizzing contest off of the fantail. Hey, that would be a good scene for the next movie. A sort of initiation for space-noobs.

 

[FalTorPan]

^ Maybe that's what the ion pod was for!

 

[Ssosmcin]

Even without all the extensive research, the impression I got simply through the dialog was that Main Engineering was deep in the bowels of the ship, with Auxiliary Control in the saucer (why bother putting it down below?).

By implication, the engines were a lot larger than they could afford to make them in practical sets (The Animated Series did a great job in One of Our Plantes Is Missing). Considering the demands of interstellar space travel, it seemed more than reasonable to assume the lower section was mostly Engineering, the hanger deck and other utilities. And since that part of the ship is pretty freakin' big, there's room to imagine a few Engine rooms: the one with the huge transformers (The Enemy Within), the one with rooom to stash Riley and fight Khan and Ben Finney; the second season one with the dylithium crystal chambers, Emergency Manual Monitor, and the other catwalk; and finally the third season room with a little alcove to kill Watkins, John B. Granted, the changes between that set and the room shown in The Ultimate Computer were minimal, but I wanted to be anal enough to say "Watkins, John B.".

"But Scott," you ask. "Why do they all have those huge forced prospective tunnels?"

Well, I dunno, maybe there's an engine room on each end, with a tunnel each port and starboard. Not all of them would be manned at all times, so you have a lonely place to throw Riley. We can feel free to ignore The Alternative Factor with the teeny little Engineering section with mica diluthium crystals.

Considering the distence, I'm glad they had turbo lifts instead of regular cruddy elevators. It would tkae forver for Scotty to go from Engineering to his station on the bridge.

Whatever the answer (and there really isn't a 100% conclusive one), Engineering on the original 1701 seemed a hell of a lot larger than on later TV shows (although TMP was effective in protraying the size of it).

 

[Christopher]

Two engine rooms makes sense, but two identical engine rooms, right down to the "cathedral?" That's just silly. We've got overwhelming evidence that the "cathedral" is directly connected to the warp engines (see "The Paradise Syndrome," "The Ultimate Computer"), so it doesn't make sense that there'd be an identically shaped structure connected to the impulse engines. Form follows function, and two radically different propulsion mechanisms surely wouldn't have the same physical structure and the exact same control consoles. So no. If there's a second engine room adjacent to the impulse engines, it's not the one we saw onscreen. That one was unquestionably adjacent to the warp engines.

 

[Forbin]

As the old saying goes: "just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it's not there." No one ever saw the restroom but we know they've got them. Otherwise they'd have to occassionally open the shuttlebay doors and have a wizzing contest off of the fantail. Hey, that would be a good scene for the next movie. A sort of initiation for space-noobs.

An Amiga animation I did, circa 1990 (about 4 MB):
http://www.inpayne.com/temp/trekdrek02.wmv

 

[Mytran]

Two engine rooms makes sense, but two identical engine rooms, right down to the "cathedral?" That's just silly. We've got overwhelming evidence that the "cathedral" is directly connected to the warp engines (see "The Paradise Syndrome," "The Ultimate Computer"), so it doesn't make sense that there'd be an identically shaped structure connected to the impulse engines. Form follows function, and two radically different propulsion mechanisms surely wouldn't have the same physical structure and the exact same control consoles. So no. If there's a second engine room adjacent to the impulse engines, it's not the one we saw onscreen. That one was unquestionably adjacent to the warp engines.

Although The Paradise Syndrome shows that the cathedral tubes are somehow connected to the engines, there's nothing to indicate what it is they do.
For example; If the tubes are the mechanism that converts raw energy to electricity usable by ship's systems, then it would explain why there's identical setups at different locations - one for converting energy from the impulse engines, one for the warp drive.

An Amiga animation I did, circa 1990 (about 4 MB):
http://www.inpayne.com/temp/trekdrek02.wmv

That's funny!