Where Trek went wrong IMO

[All Seeing Eye]

The Galaxy became too small.

Whenever I watch TOS and the TOS movies I get this feeling of vastness. It's a feeling that the Galaxy they are in is huge and takes a long time to even traverse within Federation territory.

In search for Spock even the station is vast, they are able to break someone out of jail, force some guy into a closet to shut him up and steal a starship.

In TNG, DS9 and VOY such things would be unheard of because the sensors would start bleeping and everyone would be aware of what's happening. It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

I long for the days when even the known galaxy is vast.

 

[Kegg]

The Galaxy became too small.

Whenever I watch TOS and the TOS movies I get this feeling of vastness. It's a feeling that the Galaxy they are in is huge and takes a long time to even traverse within Federation territory.

Except when it doesn't. Star Trek has been very consistent about moving at the speed of plot, and there are definitely occasions within TOS or the TOS movies where we go fairly quickly - to the centre of the universe in The Final Frontier, or our quick visits to the edge of the galaxy on the show.

 

[SilentP]

The Galaxy became too small.

Whenever I watch TOS and the TOS movies I get this feeling of vastness. It's a feeling that the Galaxy they are in is huge and takes a long time to even traverse within Federation territory.

Really? I got the complete opposite vibe with the few episodes I watched. They seemed to be able to warp to the far edge (our side ableit) of the galaxy in no time at all, while in the 24th Century episodes, even this would take a long time. I may, however, be wrong about that perception of the TOS episodes.

In search for Spock even the station is vast, they are able to break someone out of jail, force some guy into a closet to shut him up and steal a starship.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the Milky Way being huge, maybe you want to clarify?

In TNG, DS9 and VOY such things would be unheard of because the sensors would start bleeping and everyone would be aware of what's happening.

I'm assuming you mean that the only way you'd know something was new was because the sensors are essentially going 'Yo, so new shiz just appeared outa nowhere!'? Even so, I'm not sure how this relates to it.

It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

No, it really isn't the best use for the term, since the term 'Orwellian' refers to how much knowledge a government has about it's citizens.

I long for the days when even the known galaxy is vast.

I think I get the gist of what you're saying here, which is basically even say the Federation should take a while, as an area, to traverse?

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, it was just a case of too much product. Too many Star Trek shows and too many Star Trek movies all in a relatively short period of time...

 

[Kegg]

To me, it was just a case of too much product. Too many Star Trek shows and too many Star Trek movies all in a relatively short period of time...

Bingo!

The over-glut of Star Trek product was a major problem for several reasons. It overstretched the writers and producers, it resulted in less interest from the viewing public... and so on. That the franchise has curtailed itself into a movie franchise - with a single picture every couple of years, if that - has been a very sensible move.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

No, it really isn't the best use for the term, since the term 'Orwellian' refers to how much knowledge a government has about it's citizens.

Yeh i'm kinda trying to say that people could get away with less. You were more likely to be caught on sensors or easily located.

On a similar but separate note In search for Spock they detected lifeform readings on the planet but had to go down to determine what they were. All they had was a beeping noice and the word lifeform detected on screen.
In later Trek one quick scan of a planet and they had your DNA logged.

Im trying to say that later Trek seemed to lose not only the feeling of vastness but the feeling of not knowing about everything that was going on.

I'm finding this hard to explain.

 

[Finn]

The Galaxy became too small.

Whenever I watch TOS and the TOS movies I get this feeling of vastness. It's a feeling that the Galaxy they are in is huge and takes a long time to even traverse within Federation territory.

In search for Spock even the station is vast, they are able to break someone out of jail, force some guy into a closet to shut him up and steal a starship.

In TNG, DS9 and VOY such things would be unheard of because the sensors would start bleeping and everyone would be aware of what's happening. It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

I long for the days when even the known galaxy is vast.

Dude!

First of all, the spacedock is huge compared to DS9, note the Enterprise docked at DS9. Not to mention Kirk had admirality so he used his rank to sneak out. Even at that, there were probably alarms going off. the doors were already open when they realized someone was on the Enterprise.

As for the galaxy, I was under the impression they were able to traverse the entire galaxy in mere days on the TOS but barely able to scratch the surface in the 24th Century shows.

 

[Finn]

It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

No, it really isn't the best use for the term, since the term 'Orwellian' refers to how much knowledge a government has about it's citizens.

Yeh i'm kinda trying to say that people could get away with less. You were more likely to be caught on sensors or easily located.

On a similar but separate note In search for Spock they detected lifeform readings on the planet but had to go down to determine what they were. All they had was a beeping noice and the word lifeform detected on screen.
In later Trek one quick scan of a planet and they had your DNA logged.

Im trying to say that later Trek seemed to lose not only the feeling of vastness but the feeling of not knowing about everything that was going on.

I'm finding this hard to explain.

I disagree with the vastness since it was shown on several occassions (You can't expect them to mention it on every episode) that they have barely explore the galaxy, with a vast region of the galaxy beyond what they know. And they did not know everything that was going on. I think you are really nitpicking on this.

 

[SilentP]

OK, fair enough, you're getting closer to defining your point.

Yeh i'm kinda trying to say that people could get away with less. You were more likely to be caught on sensors or easily located.

It seemed all you had to in order to be lost by internal sensors was to take off your comm badge. Many a time that has been the method of wayward officers of getting away with things, or kidnappers of officers getting away with not being tracked.

On a similar but separate note In search for Spock they detected lifeform readings on the planet but had to go down to determine what they were. All they had was a beeping noice and the word lifeform detected on screen.
In later Trek one quick scan of a planet and they had your DNA logged.

Not necessarily true. The best they could usually do was be able to detect what species was down on the planet if it was sparsely inhabitated, and only if that species was already 'catalogued' (i.e. they would be able to detect say 'Vulcan lifesigns', but not be able to tell you that Tuvok was down there).

Im trying to say that later Trek seemed to lose not only the feeling of vastness but the feeling of not knowing about everything that was going on.

I suppose that's a side effect of getting more advanced sensors. I however get th feeling that you miss something, i.e. a sentiment of having everything completely fresh, like how exploring these days is rarely completely reliant on using the ol' Mk I eyeball, rather than going into an 'unexplored' area that's already been snapshotted by satellites and the like.

I'm finding this hard to explain.

The more you clarify, the easier it is for us to understand.

 

[Solarbaby]

I agree. It only takes the defiant a week at warp 9 to reach earth from deepSpace 9. Its called deep space because its on the edge of the unknown in the middle of nowhere as it was originally pitched. But in reality its on the border or cardassian space and near the klingons but nowhere near romulan space. Yet theres an established klingon/romulan neutral zone. So the Romulans must be next to Klingons. But the Klingons are on the border of federation space- as are the Romulans. LMAO

I would love to see an official map of the alpha and beta quadrants to see how all these neighbouring territories fit together. I am assuming that all the star systems are on the same galactic plane and therefore can't overlap each other like a multi-galactic planed would be able (if such a thing were to exist)

The universe certainly does feel a lot smaller since TOS. Even Enterprise made it feel small. 5 days to Kronos in a shitty akiraprise at warp 4 or was it 5.(Which would actually be about warp 2 since the warp denominations were changed for the TNG so that Warp 9 in TOS was actually warp 6.

Also how did the Enterprise catch up to the borg ship in best of both worlds part 2 when they had power down after 12 hours of maximum safe speed? The galaxy must have suddenly shrunk.

Funny though that the enterprise is always the nearest ship to a problem

 

[StarryEyed]

It isn't so much that the unexplored part of the galaxy became small, it's that exploring got a lot easier. You really got feel that the original crew was undertaking a very bold, grand adventure. You really got the feeling that this was cutting edge. Uncharted ground, figuratively and literally.

The 24th-century explorers not only have far better equipment, they have much more knowledge and far better training. This is to be expected. Over the decades, Starfleet learned what works and what doesn't work. It learned what type of people are needed on starships, what approaches work best when dealing with new life, how to best maintain crew morale and confidence. And on and on. The 24th-century crews benefit from all of this and as a result, exploring the galaxy isn't quite the spine-tingling thing it once was.

Enterprise really blew this. Exploration should have been a bone-chilling experience for them. It should NEVER have become routine. We saw a little bit of it with Hoshi in the early episodes but TPTB were much more interested in having sexy actors smear gel on each other.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

To me, it was just a case of too much product. Too many Star Trek shows and too many Star Trek movies all in a relatively short period of time...

Bingo!

The over-glut of Star Trek product was a major problem for several reasons. It overstretched the writers and producers, it resulted in less interest from the viewing public... and so on. That the franchise has curtailed itself into a movie franchise - with a single picture every couple of years, if that - has been a very sensible move.

Concur... Plus, I would add the whole Utopian concept with practically emotionless humans for the main actors/actresses was another nail in the proverbial coffin.

Stoic is one thing, but practically laconic acting is another.

Just IMO, though.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[JarodRussell]

The Galaxy became too small.

Whenever I watch TOS and the TOS movies I get this feeling of vastness. It's a feeling that the Galaxy they are in is huge and takes a long time to even traverse within Federation territory.

In search for Spock even the station is vast, they are able to break someone out of jail, force some guy into a closet to shut him up and steal a starship.

In TNG, DS9 and VOY such things would be unheard of because the sensors would start bleeping and everyone would be aware of what's happening. It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

I long for the days when even the known galaxy is vast.

This is actually where I think the new movie went totally wrong. The galaxy was so small in this movie. Yes, there were various aliens, and various space ships. But everybody knew each other, just happened to bump into each other, Pike knowing Kirk's father, serving on the Kelvin, Kirk living where the Enterprise gets built, Kirk meets Uhura in Iowa, gets in a fight with "Cupcake", gets rescued by Pike. Then he meets McCoy, also in Iowa, and look, there's Uhura again. Spock wrote the Kobayashi Maru. Then Kirk gets onto the Enterprise, and look who's there: Cupcake! Yeah and then Kirk gets exiled, runs into Old Spock, and Scotty is there, too, and so forth and shit. Everything felt really awfully small.



I didn't get that feeling with TNG, DS9 or VOY. I felt they greatly expanded upon the universe. And Voyager needed 70 years to get home, and she meet dozens of different species. Deep Space Nine greatly expanded the whole political situation. It was because of Deep Space Nine that you were finally able to draw a map of the Alpha Quadrant.
I really liked that. And I thought it made the galaxy feel bigger, not smaller.

 

[SilentP]

This is actually where I think the new movie went totally wrong. The galaxy was so small in this movie. Yes, there were various aliens, and various space ships. But everybody knew each other, just happened to bump into each other, Pike knowing Kirk's father, serving on the Kelvin,

If he serves on the same ship, how unlikely is it that he'd know him, even if only as a superior officer (Kirk was XO)? Especially as he was a cadet at the time, and it's likely cadets would probably have been on a proverbial tight leash off a high ranking officer on ship to monitor their progress.

Kirk living where the Enterprise gets built,

Well if Kirk Senior is meant to be considered some kind of hero for his actions against the Narada, it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine the new flagship of the fleet may be built in his home state.

Kirk meets Uhura in Iowa, gets in a fight with "Cupcake", gets rescued by Pike.

Well, from the way Pike talks to Kirk, it almost sounds like he's been keeping an eye on him, rather than just 'reading his profile', waiting for the right time to talk to him.

Then he meets McCoy, also in Iowa, and look, there's Uhura again.

Well considering all the cadets seemed to be there, since it was a pick up point, it would be a bit odd if Uhura wasn't there. McCoy, on the other hand, a bit of a stretch.

Spock wrote the Kobayashi Maru.

While it serves a storyline purpose to have him write the scenario, and have the difference in philosophies between him and Kirk come out, I don't see why Spock would have written the scenario.*

Then Kirk gets onto the Enterprise, and look who's there: Cupcake!

Yes, because Cupcake is a major part of the TOS line up.

Yeah and then Kirk gets exiled, runs into Old Spock, and Scotty is there, too, and so forth and shit. Everything felt really awfully small.

While not totally invalid, it just seems to make Earth and not the universe smaller, but then again every significant human character seems to be born on Earth, despite the dozens of human colonies.

The thing with an introductory story where the whole of the original cast of characters has to be introduced, how much of a stretch would it have been for them to be darting all over the quadrant to random locations, and just happen to bump into a useful crewmember (who turns out to be a TOS character) at every single one and decide to take them on?

I didn't get that feeling with TNG, DS9 or VOY. I felt they greatly expanded upon the universe. And Voyager needed 70 years to get home, and she meet dozens of different species. Deep Space Nine greatly expanded the whole political situation. It was because of Deep Space Nine that you were finally able to draw a map of the Alpha Quadrant.
I really liked that. And I thought it made the galaxy feel bigger, not smaller.

True, this is undeniable. But then again, the series has many hours to develop the universe properly.

*Here's something though that bugs me about the Spock's storyline, but it may be mitigated if the time span is/was properly given. From how the scenes are arranged, it makes it look like that Spock joined the academy maybe a few years, if that before Kirk did, yet before Kirk's even done his time in the academy (and even that was faster than most cadets), Spock is already a commander.

While Kirk's rapid promotion makes sense (in terms of political PRing to 'distract' people from the rest of the disaster of the Narada incident/saga or give a public perception that the Kirk 'dynasty' has fought this menace at every opportunity, wartime-style promotion that the scenario seems to have, and the fact that it's likely he would have graduated as a Lieutenant, forget the meta-universe view we have of the Star Trek universe), Spock has no such factors working in his favour, except for Vulcan 'excellence' or whatever would drive him further.

 

[The Laughing Vulcan]

Dividing the galaxy into four is an issue. When you have the Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta quadrants, all neatly marked on a map, it sort of takes the wonder out of it. To name a thing is to know a thing.

Even in TNG, they could have had 1000 ly sphere around Sol, call it known space, and they could have told all the stories they needed to in that space. Everything beyond could have been marked 'Here be dragons', and they could have occasionally ventured beyond for an exploration episode.

 

[SFRabid]

To me, it was just a case of too much product. Too many Star Trek shows and too many Star Trek movies all in a relatively short period of time...

Yes, my thought also. When we had 3 seasons of TOS in 20 years everyone wanted more. When we got 21 seasons of TNG, DS9 and VOY in a short period the anticipation effect was sucked out of the series.

The galaxy did not become too small, the staff did. 24 seasons and 10 movies drained them of any new ideas. Add to that the limited budgets of the later series and they were very limited in the ability to create aliens that could not be created by putting a costume or a forehead on a human.

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, it was just a case of too much product. Too many Star Trek shows and too many Star Trek movies all in a relatively short period of time...

Yes, my thought also. When we had 3 seasons of TOS in 20 years everyone wanted more. When we got 21 seasons of TNG, DS9 and VOY in a short period the anticipation effect was sucked out of the series.

The galaxy did not become too small, the staff did. 24 seasons and 10 movies drained them of any new ideas. Add to that the limited budgets of the later series and they were very limited in the ability to create aliens that could not be created by putting a costume or a forehead on a human.

Agreed. The size of the Star Trek Galaxy was the least of what was wrong with Trek back then, IMO.

 

[JustKate]

I don't think Trek has gone wrong. Some Trek I like more than other Trek, and some a lot more, but "gone wrong"? Nah. I personally didn't like Enterprise, and all I can say about even my favorites among the movies is, "I liked these," but doesn't mean Trek "went wrong." It just means that I didn't like it. Hey, it happens. Some Trek is great, most of it is good part of the time, and nearly all of it is at least fun. I think that's a pretty impressive feat for an entertainment franchise that started out as a TV show with marginal ratings.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

It wasn't the size of the galaxy, it was the loss of a certain quality. Let's call it pizazz.

 

[T'Girl]

It's not really the best term to use but the Trekverse became more Orwellian.

No, it really isn't the best use for the term, since the term 'Orwellian' refers to how much knowledge a government has about it's citizens.

Not just knowledge, there's monitoring your activities in the streets and inside buildings. Also control over your movements and access to information.

Sisko and his father get in a argument over the federation's (over) reaction to the possiblity of the founders coming to Earth. Outside Sisko senior's restuarant there is a handful of armed star fleet personal. Was Star Fleet also "deciding" what the populace should know?