"Where" instead of "were" . . . WTF??

[RJDiogenes]

Heh. Moderators moderating? There's another lost art.

I don't remember that. In any case, it's not analogous to what we're talking about.

Yea it is.

Not even close. "Yeah" is just slang. We're talking about aggressive low standards.

Of course, that's why it's always a good idea to proofread your completed post before clicking "submit."

Yeah, that's part of the point. The other part is to be able to proofread.

There's nothing more intellectually lazy than stereotyping, especially the age-old "the younger generations are (something negative)" stereotype which refuses to go away no matter how many times its inaccuracy and hypocrisy is pointed out.

And yet it continues to be a problem in contemporary culture-- which consists of more than one generation-- no matter how many times people like you use the generation gap dodge. Basic spelling and grammar errors are rampant on news channels, in professional magazines, in sales brochures, in professionally published books, in ads and signs-- not to mention internal company emails and memos. All of these written and reviewed by (usually multiple) alleged college graduates who are supposed to know better.

Of course it is. It's another example of people erroneously thinking language itself is in danger and giving their minor First World Problems way too much emphasis rather than actual major issues.

Again, no. Simple colloquialism. And now you're trotting out the First World Problems dodge. The bottom line is that high standards are better than low standards.

English might not be their first language

Obviously that's not a problem. And some people simply have a mental block with spelling, as I do with math. I know a woman who is famous for her bad spelling-- she has an incredibly high IQ, she's very well educated, talented and creative, she's a professional veterinarian. But she can't spell. Among her circle of friends, we've adopted the nickname "Caht" for "Chat" because that's how she's been known to spell it. But she would never say that spelling and grammar are irrelevant or a first world problem or anything like that.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Well, "kids today" tend to be less racist and homophobic so I'll take that even if their writing isn't up to par.

Even if that's true, how is it a choice between one and the other? I don't see any relation between the two.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

Rick, I think what he meant was that kids nowadays may have their weaknesses (like spelling) but make up for it by having other virtues.

Of course, it'd be nice if they could do both (and have less horrible music)

(LOL it's been ages since we were online at the same time. I really ought to go to bed)

 

[JarodRussell]

The Trek lit authors and editors can surely tell a few anecdotes about spelling mistakes they made. Are they part of the downfall of humanity?

 

[rhubarbodendron]

in the Trek universe, they might well be.

 

[sidious618]

Well, "kids today" tend to be less racist and homophobic so I'll take that even if their writing isn't up to par.

Even if that's true, how is it a choice between one and the other? I don't see any relation between the two.

Because I'm tired of people like you constantly complaining about "kids today" as if you just hit on some profound understanding of humanity. Your attitude was tired when John Milton made fun of it centuries ago.

There are more misspellings in literature today because there is more written content than ever before and it needs to be produced faster than before. Even that aside, if you were to go back and read older letters and manuscripts you'd find that, lo and behold, they have typos, too. And quite often!

I read a lot of older writings and I read a lot of current stuff and I write a lot. I can tell you that there's no real difference and that this is a whole bunch of bullshit people blow out of proportion in order to feel better about themselves.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Look Lokutus. I never compared misspellers to Nazis.

No shit. What you said was that declining standards can lead to things like the rise of Nazism, along with other idiocy like elderly people not getting their pensions, patients being killed by mistaken orders from their doctors, and economies collapsing, and you used a simple topic about a typo to launch into your ridiculous rant about the younger generation screwing everything up with their lack of literacy. I already pointed out why that was BS, but instead of putting up an effective counter-argument, you decided to ignore it, complain, and make excuses.

What I DID say was that small causes can lead to big effects. To underline the basic principle of this small cause/big effect connection I gave an example (NOT a comparism!) of how a trivial fact that in the long run lead to one of the biggest catastrophies mankind experienced.
If you comment on other people's posts, then please read them properly, for crying out loud!

I am sick and tired of people turning the words around in my mouth and attacking me for no reason at all, simply because they are unable to read propely (again: small cause, big effect).

And I'm getting pretty sick of you saying offensive and stupid things and then accusing others of not reading them properly when you get called on it. If you're going to say something, own up to it or don't say it at all. But cut out the passive-aggressive blaming of others because you apparently aren't able to make a coherent or inoffensive argument.

If this keeps happening to you with different people over and over again, then did it ever cross your mind that maybe the problem is you and not everyone else?

And a moderator ought to moderate conflicts (hence the name), not to start quarrels.

It wasn't a quarrel until you made it one. Initially it was just me refuting your argument, which is kind of what forums are all about. If you can't handle it, you know where the door is. But then you ignored the debate and had the gall to actually chastise others for making jokes about not engaging in hyperbole while you seriously Godwinned a completely innocuous typo thread and stereotyped an entire generation of people. Then you also pulled your standard "You didn't read or understand what I said" crap which is condescending, and capped it all off with the always tedious "you're a moderator!" complaint. So now, yeah, I'm kind of pissed. Deal with it.

We voluntarily moderate this board. If we got paid, then yeah, I could understand asking us to remain neutral in debates and just to patrol the board. But I enjoy participating in discussion here, and I get passionate about certain subjects just like anyone else. So knock off the fucking "But you're a moderator" whining. It gets used around this board against all of us way too much, and it's annoying as shit. Especially since there wasn't even a conflict to moderate (hence the word, she said condescendingly) until you made it one.

Ask any German on this board what they think of Nazi jokes and Nazi comparisms. NONE of us will like it. And why? Because they are illegal in our country. You can go to prison for that stuff over here. And that is why we find it disturbing to read them. So would you please simply stop it?

Well, thankfully you can't go to prison for it here, and since you like to point out how people miss the point of your comments so much, it's pretty hilarious how you completely missed the point of mine, which was about how you shouldn't use insane hyperbole to make your argument on such an insignificant issue, whether the exaggeration is about the downfall of literacy, the rise of Nazism, elderly people losing their pensions, patients dying, collapsing economies, or how this generation is a bunch of screw ups. Apparently stereotyping an entire generation of kids as lazy idiots is perfectly acceptable to you, but don't you dare use a joke about Hitler to make a point about hyperbole, because that's crossing a line. Hitler can only be used to insult young people, I guess.

Now can we please get this thread back on topic?

We have one of these topics whining about typos or grammar and kids these days and blowing it completely out of proportion every other week. It'll survive a little sidebar, especially one you created.

And if you're going to appoint yourself mini-mod, then I expect you to uphold your own rules about not starting quarrels.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

No shit. What you said was that declining standards can lead to things like the rise of Nazism,

Now, can you show me exactly where I said that?
You can't bbecause I didn't.
Now, stop trolling me before I file an official complaint

 

[Locutus of Bored]

No shit. What you said was that declining standards can lead to things like the rise of Nazism,

Now, can you show me exactly where I said that?
You can't bbecause I didn't.

Want to bet?

No wonder you tell people they can't understand or didn't read your posts. Apparently you can't understand them yourself.

I wholeheartedly agree with Scotpens on this issue.

Let us not forget that we are talking about the people who in a few years are supposed to pay our pensions, to nurse us through illness and old age and to act for us in business matters. How can they do any of this properly if they are not even able to speak, read and write their native language?

While it doesn't usually cause great harm to confuse an Etymologist with an Entomologist, it will be very lethal indeed if a doctor confuses insuline with adrenaline.

How would you like, when you are old, to be in a nursing home where with every day you have to dread anew that you might be poisoned because the nurse didn't read your mediaction list properly?

Would you rely on your children and grandchildren to sort out your business affairs for you when you know they have trouble reading words of more than one syllable?

Who will pay taxes to secure your pension when the majority is not literate enough to do anything but the most undemanding (and hence badly payed = low taxed) jobs?

Like all really big problems, this one starts small and at a first glance looks ridiculous. But it'll build, like an avalanche, if it isn't being stopped in an early state.

Remember that the 3rd Reich started with one sulking Austrian hobby-painter who was pissed for being rejected at Munich Art school. And then recall what the consequences were, 20 years later.

Culture is important. It's the foundation of our society. And communication is the foundation of our economy. We need both to survive.

What exactly did you mean then?

Now, stop trolling me before I file an official complaint

Go right ahead. All my points have been directly on-topic reactions to your comments (ie. not trolling), and I haven't flamed you. If the subject matter is ridiculously off-topic it's because you made it ridiculous with all the nonsense hyperbole about Nazis, patients dying, old people being left destitute, and economies crashing.

You however will find that posters calling other posters out for trolling is against the rules and a warnable offense. So by all means, file an official complaint and let the mods handle it.

If you want this to stop, quit replying and escalating your responses and I'll stop. But if you keep making some pathetic attempt to "win" by adding fuel to the fire, then I will respond to you accordingly, but within the rules.

 

[Kestra]

No shit. What you said was that declining standards can lead to things like the rise of Nazism,

Now, can you show me exactly where I said that?
You can't bbecause I didn't.
Now, stop trolling me before I file an official complaint

Like all really big problems, this one starts small and at a first glance looks ridiculous. But it'll build, like an avalanche, if it isn't being stopped in an early state.
Remember that the 3rd Reich started with one sulking Austrian hobby-painter who was pissed for being rejected at Munich Art school. And then recall what the consequences were, 20 years later.

Not that I think he'd mind if you filed an official complaint.

Edit: Oops, too late.

 

[JarodRussell]

I still don't get what you wanted to say about Hitler. Should they NOT have rejected him at art school? Their standards were too high for him to reach.

 

[rhubarbodendron]

thanks, Jarod
I only used him as a globally known example for how a small thing can in the long run cause a really big problem.
In hindsight, a snowball/avalanche might have been a better simile but I am not sure if everyone here has seen an avalanche or made a snowball (my Ex is from LA and has never seen real snow up close).

In a different way (but in the same principle: small cause/big effect), a lack of literacy might possibly lead to serious economic trouble. If - as Locutus himself posted - people can't read or write properly, they will get no jobs or will get fired quickly. Now, if very many people can't read or write properly, the result will be a very high number of unemployed and therefore a high number of people who don't pay taxes. This way there will be less money for social aid, medical aid, economical aid and all the other things tax money is spent on. In addition, unemployed people can't afford to buy much. This will weaken the economy further. I such a situation an additional economic problem (for example a bank crash) might cause the whole system to break down.
And that was my point. Causes that seem very small and trivial at a first glance can have unexpected and really bad effects.

 

[MacLeod]

The English language is always evolving and changing, it hasn't remained static. We all make typo's from time to time even on the simpler words. And we can easily miss a typo or spelling mistake when we read something back.

Today's spelling mistake could be tomorrow's correct spelling.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes "yeah" is not a misspelling but there were many opinion pieces about the decline of language and hence, civilization as we know it because of the rise of slang words into the mainstream. A lot of slang which was previously considered coarse and colloquial associated with a sloppier young generation burst into the mainstream and there were many defenders of language who saw this as a downhill slide. It was exactly the same argument being made in this thread. Stuff is changing so it must be decline!

One reason we seemingly see more misspellings is we all write a lot more and communicate in writing a lot more. When I was a kid I only read books and magazines, in which someone was paid to edit the words. Now I read read read every day a gazillion diverse people's writings in forums, facebook, email, tumbr, MMO chat.. it is just flowing over me. People communicate far more with writing than they used to and they do it fast, we simply have far more chance to read misspellings than pre internet times.

I was always top speller in school. I remember being shocked none of my classmates could spell for shit. If I had been facebooking them they would have been exactly like a lot of people on facebook are today. Nothing has declined, we are just reading the written words of a much wider range of people and that opening of writing into the public (as opposed to published) domain has meant we are reading very different writers than we did in the past.

 

[Maurice]

I think this was touched upon upthread, but people have made these same kinds of mistakes forever, and it's not new to this age. I have seen many of the spelling and grammar errors in silent film title cards which people bemoan today about the interwebs.

Might I suggest it's more obvious today what the writing and spelling standards are of the public at large because via the internet we are exposed to far more writing by non-professionals than people were in the past century? While I read messages by scores of average people every day, I'm sure my mother didn't read letters from dozens of people every day. This new window we have into the world surely affects perception on this topic.

That said, I am so sick of "then" being used for "than" that I want to punch someone.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Folks will never quite quit being quiet any more now than then about whether or not we semi-literate dolts care to weather their grammar obsessions.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Internet has changed a lot about our perception of our own society. Recently there was this thread about gamers getting more stupid because of questions asked on Twitter about obstacles in games. The truth is that these questions have always been asked, but simply not for everyone to see on the Internet.

Same goes for spelling and grammar mistakes. They have always been made.

It's just a lot more noticable now thanks to the WWW.

 

[JayOwl]

thanks, Jarod
I only used him as a globally known example for how a small thing can in the long run cause a really big problem.
In hindsight, a snowball/avalanche might have been a better simile but I am not sure if everyone here has seen an avalanche or made a snowball (my Ex is from LA and has never seen real snow up close).

In a different way (but in the same principle: small cause/big effect), a lack of literacy might possibly lead to serious economic trouble. If - as Locutus himself posted - people can't read or write properly, they will get no jobs or will get fired quickly. Now, if very many people can't read or write properly, the result will be a very high number of unemployed and therefore a high number of people who don't pay taxes. This way there will be less money for social aid, medical aid, economical aid and all the other things tax money is spent on. In addition, unemployed people can't afford to buy much. This will weaken the economy further. I such a situation an additional economic problem (for example a bank crash) might cause the whole system to break down.
And that was my point. Causes that seem very small and trivial at a first glance can have unexpected and really bad effects.

Has standards in spelling really gotten worse though? Ignorance has always been alive and well, it's just not always been so vocal.
Let's put it this way: Millions of people are submitting data to the world wide web every day, where as before the 90s or even the 00s that had never been the case. If a person had a problem with spelling in the 80s, they wouldn't be broadcasting it to the world. Yes, it would impact their life in work or school and wherever else but far fewer people would know anything about it. In many ways it's the same now as it was then, for every person with poor spelling (which does not necessarily mean that they have a low IQ) there is another who has no problems with spelling.

Now focusing on your targeting of "the youth of today". Many of the worst typos and 'severe' spelling errors that you find are made by people in their pre-teens and early teens. They are still in full time education and for many of them, a few years of English lessons will remedy the 'problem'. When I joined this board in 2009 I was 14 years old and although my spelling was ok, and fairly good for my age, I still made the occasional mistake and you can easily tell the difference if you read one of my posts then and one of my posts now (I got an A in English).
Of course, there are always people who have finished education and cannot spell, but as far as I can see there are less of them, and it's nothing new.

Rick, I think what he meant was that kids nowadays may have their weaknesses (like spelling) but make up for it by having other virtues.

Generalisation. Try to avoid it.

Of course, it'd be nice if they could do both (and have less horrible music)

Although I know exactly what you mean and I know you're only joking please remember that 'club music' and 'chart music' =/= all modern music. You might have to look a little harder but there's still some fantastic stuff out there, not to mention many young people (including me) listen to a lot of older music as well.

ETA: It looks like a lot of the points I made in this post were made by other posters as I was typing.

 

[Count Zero]

Ask any German on this board what they think of Nazi jokes and Nazi comparisms. NONE of us will like it. And why? Because they are illegal in our country. You can go to prison for that stuff over here.

If Nazi jokes were illegal here nearly all of our comedians would be in prison. And while Nazi comparisons in politics are indeed quite controversial (and guaranteed to get you some media attention) they're also pretty popular. If comparing someone to a Nazi or equating something with the rise of Nazism got you into prison, plenty of notable politicians would have seen the inside of a cell by now, including Willy Brandt.

It does indeed get very tiresome when people bring up the Nazis in any thread about Germany, especially because they usually aren't very funny. But I certainly do enjoy a good Nazi joke (e.g. the character of Alfons Hatler in the Wixxer movies).

 

[1001001]

It's already happening in Texas. Wake up, People!!!