Where do Trill symbionts come from?

[Sci]

On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?

Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.

 

[Thestral]

On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?

Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...

 

[Sci]

On a related note, why would it be so devastating to Trill society if it became known that they have a lot more hosts physically capable of hosting symbionts than they have symbionts? They’re a reasonably mature and democratic society, aren’t they?

Even mature, democratic societies will often evolve to include political elites that end up dominating that society to the exclusion of people in the lower classes.

The political elites of Trill claim that they've been perpetuating the myth that only a small percentage of the population can host a symbiont because they were worried that if it was more widely known, lots of greedy people out there would reduce the symbionts to mere commodities, to be bought and sold at will.

On the other hand... Look at it from the point of view of an Unjoined. To a member of the Great Unjoined, it could easily appear that the Joined are actively seeking to undermine the ability of most Unjoined to move up in society. Being Joined tends to give you great advantages in Trill society -- Trill: Unjoined establishes that the Joined make up the vast majority of the Trill government. The Trill Senate is mostly Joined, the Trill President is usually Joined, etc.

There's a strong case to be made that the Joined are actually only seeking to protect their privileged status within society by keeping secret the fact that most Unjoined could carry a symbiont successfully. And when people feel like political elites are keeping them down -- are actively oppressing them? The results are rarely pretty.

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...

"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?

 

[Thestral]

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...

"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?

It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it? We're talking about the attempted (and nearly successful) extermination of an entire species, not an attack on a nation-state or ethnic/religious group(s). And a species with a centuries-long history of peaceful coexistence whose only crime (in this particular case) was not having babies fast enough. Of the various factions involved in that particular struggle on Trill, the symbionts (and maybe the Guardians) are the truest victims. In a sense, the Parasites got their revenge after all...

But no, I won't hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the massacre at Mak'ala. What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.

I don't hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11 or Christians for the KKK, in part because they (the vast majority) openly condemned such actions and repudiated them. No doubt all of Trill was equally horrified by the symbiont massacre, but the Joined and those unJoined who are/were fanatical have equal blood on their hands.

 

[Sci]

I have little sympathy for the "great Unjoined" based on what they did to the symbiont population...

"They?"

You're going to hold the vast majority of Trill responsible for the actions of a small number of terrorists?

Tell me, do you also hold the vast majority of Muslims responsible for 9/11? Of Christians for the KKK?

It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it?

It's a horrible analogy. Germany was a democracy that elected to power a totalitarian who then ended democracy but continued to enjoy widespread domestic support for his entire agenda, including rampant anti-Semitism, genocide, and aggressive war.

The vast majority of Unjoined, by contrast, were peacefully petitioning their elected government -- dominated by Joined -- for equal rights when a handful of extremists engaged in a terrorist attack using advanced technology to kill as many of the Symbionts as possible -- killing, if I recall correctly, plenty of other Unjoined in the process.

The analogy completely falls apart in attempting to describe the distribution of responsibility.

We're talking about the attempted (and nearly successful) extermination of an entire species, not an attack on a nation-state or ethnic/religious group(s). And a species with a centuries-long history of peaceful coexistence whose only crime (in this particular case) was not having babies fast enough.

Sure, it was an attempted genocide, but the nature of the crime is irrelevant in describing whether or not the majority of Unjoined are responsible for it. The majority are clearly not -- it was a small terrorist organization who killed a lot of Unjoined as they tried to commit genocide, not the majority or even a large percentage, of Unjoined who committed the crime.

How can you possible hold most Unjoined responsible for the actions of a few?

And let's not pretend that the Joined's hands were clean. They were clearly using their higher social status to deny equal access to social and governmental power to the Unjoined.

Of the various factions involved in that particular struggle on Trill, the symbionts (and maybe the Guardians) are the truest victims.

Everyone's a victim -- the Symbionts and Joined are victims of the terrorist group, and the Unjoined are victims of the Joined's social classism.

What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.

Fair enough. But it's like Sisko said in "Past Tense" with regards to the Bell Riots:

Treat a man like a dog and you will get bitten.

Violence is the natural result of social oppression, overt or covert, and that's exactly what the Joined were engaging in. They were to the Trill as the rich are to Americans.

That doesn't make it okay -- but let's not pretend that anyone's hands are clean on Trill.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

Where do Trill symbionts come from?

Milwaukee.

 

[JB2005]

Where do Trill symbionts come from? How do they reproduce?

When a mommy trill symbiont and a daddy trill symbiont love each other very much, they make a wish, and a stork drops off a little baby trill symbiont...

prove me wrong using canon

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Where do Trill symbionts come from? How do they reproduce?

When a mommy trill symbiont and a daddy trill symbiont love each other very much, they make a wish, and a stork drops off a little baby trill symbiont...

prove me wrong using canon

The stork now has warp engines to reach Trill? I find this hard to believe. Show me technical manuals that prove the stork has been advanced to this degree as of the 24th century.

 

[JB2005]

From the production notes of Brannon Braga:

By the 24th Century the Stork will have evolved as a result of a mutation in its T-Cell into a lizard creature which is capable of travelling at Warp 10, allowing it to go everywhere in the universe simultaenously and yet bizarrely always end up where it started when it stops...

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

They are the culmination of everything consumed by both black holes and the artist Meatloaf. There's a big giant tube in space that shoots them out. Sometimes they land on planets like the Trill home world. Sometimes they end up at Taco Bell. Either way, it's been said that they are both tangy and crunchy.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

From the production notes of Brannon Braga:

By the 24th Century the Stork will have evolved as a result of a mutation in its T-Cell into a lizard creature which is capable of travelling at Warp 10, allowing it to go everywhere in the universe simultaenously and yet bizarrely always end up where it started when it stops...

 

[Thestral]

It worked for the German psyche in the aftermath of WW2, which is a better analogy, didn't it?

It's a horrible analogy. Germany was a democracy that elected to power a totalitarian who then ended democracy but continued to enjoy widespread domestic support for his entire agenda, including rampant anti-Semitism, genocide, and aggressive war.

The vast majority of Unjoined, by contrast, were peacefully petitioning their elected government -- dominated by Joined -- for equal rights when a handful of extremists engaged in a terrorist attack using advanced technology to kill as many of the Symbionts as possible -- killing, if I recall correctly, plenty of other Unjoined in the process.

My point was a majority with a history of grievances that was co-opted by a murderously violent minority, fueled by race hatred. The falling-apart of the analogy in that case is that there's no sense that the UnJoined hate the symbionts by and large, just those few terrorists. On the other hand, the anti-Semitism of the majority German people was not significantly greater than what you'd find in Britain, France, or Russia; people, however, are sheep. And the German people did have legitimate grievances and put the blame on the wrong people. If Versailles had never happened, maybe the Holocaust wouldn't have either.

Sure, it was an attempted genocide, but the nature of the crime is irrelevant in describing whether or not the majority of Unjoined are responsible for it. The majority are clearly not -- it was a small terrorist organization who killed a lot of Unjoined as they tried to commit genocide, not the majority or even a large percentage, of Unjoined who committed the crime.

How can you possible hold most Unjoined responsible for the actions of a few?

Ahh yes, I'd forgotten about the bombings throughout the planet; it's been some time and the bombing of the breeding pools is what stuck with me most. Alright, consider that rescinded. Nonetheless, what do you make of the widespread riots that broke out after the President came clean of the goverment's wrongs and after the attempted genocide became common knowledge?

And let's not pretend that the Joined's hands were clean. They were clearly using their higher social status to deny equal access to social and governmental power to the Unjoined.

Everyone's a victim -- the Symbionts and Joined are victims of the terrorist group, and the Unjoined are victims of the Joined's social classism.

Well obviously the hands of the Joined are bloody. It's their damn fault this whole thing came about in regards to the secrecy of milennia and the blatant use of higher social status for power and wealth. But let's also not pretend that anyone's hands are clean - even the Symbionts for their history of secrecy.

What I can hold them responsible for is thinking that symbiont partnerships could in any way be equitably disbursed and fomenting an attitude of violence that many hundreds were involved in - note the various firefights before the bombing.

Fair enough. But it's like Sisko said in "Past Tense" with regards to the Bell Riots:

Treat a man like a dog and you will get bitten.

Violence is the natural result of social oppression, overt or covert, and that's exactly what the Joined were engaging in. They were to the Trill as the rich are to Americans.

That doesn't make it okay -- but let's not pretend that anyone's hands are clean on Trill.

There's literally no way that everyone can be Joined. There will always be classism issues on Trill so long as symbiosis is a part of their society. The process can be more transparent, and society can be less dependant on the classism of the Joined and unJoined split. But there's no way to avoid some nutcase deciding he has to have a symbiont, once the population levels return to normal.