Where did the Vulcans come from?

[Christopher]

They used to come from Vulcanis.

I sometimes wonder if the early TOS writers originally intended Spock to come from Le Verrier's Vulcan, a planet once hypothesized to exist inside Mercury's orbit and explain its orbital anomalies. It was discredited when Einstein's General Relativity accounted for the anomalies, but science fiction kept on using the idea for decades thereafter, so the creators of TOS were probably aware of it. And the original series pitch said Spock was "probably half-Martian," so they had Solar planets in mind as possible origins for him. Plus I don't think it's really until "Amok Time" that it becomes explicit onscreen that Vulcan resides in its own star system. ("The Man Trap"'s "Vulcan has no moon" might also be a clue, since Mercury and Venus are moonless and it follows that an cis-Mercurian Vulcan would have been also.) The first explicit mention of Vulcan as an extrasolar planet is actually in James Blish's "Balance of Terror" adaptation, where he makes a point of saying it's "not the imaginary Solar world of that name, but a planet of 40 Eridani."

 

[Arpy]

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RAFFI: What is Ganmadan? What is the story?
ELNOR: It’s just that — a story.
NAREK: A story of the end.
RAFFI: Of?
NAREK: Everything.
RIOS: Like Ragnarok or Judgement Day. An ancient myth.
NAREK: Some say it dates back from long before our ancestors first arrived on Vulcan. The story of Ganmadan begins with two sisters. Twin khalagu.
ELNOR: Demons.
NAREK: Twin demons who come at the end of time to open the way and unleash the ch’khalagu.
ELNOR: Very bad demons.
NAREK: On sister is called Seb Natan, the Foreteller. She plays a drum made from the skin of children. She strikes it with a chain of skulls, so hard and so long that her heart bursts from the effort.
RAFFI: Mm.
NAREK: The other sister is called Seb-
RAFFI: Seb Cheneb? Yeah, see, w-we know about her.
NAREK: So you know that she carries a horn from a great pale hell-beast called Ganmadan. You know when she blows a blast on the horn, it will unleash all the ch’khalagu who have been waiting since the biginning of time. You know the sky will crack, and through the crack in the sky the ch’khalagu will come ravening. You know about the thousand days of pain. You know the streets will be slick with entrails of half-devoured corpses. You know the worlds will burn, and the ch’khalagu will feast, and nurse their brats on blood, and pick their teeth with bones.
RIOS: No we did not know any of that.
RAFFI: But, I mean, do you really…you really believe this is a-a prophesy?
NAREK: No. I believe it’s history.

 

[Christopher]

That just sounds like a generic apocalypse myth that Narek is cherrypicking to fit actual events. Yes, one or two points correspond, mainly the twin sisters. But I didn't see any child-skin drums or chains of skulls anywhere in the show.

 

[Arpy]

That just sounds like a generic apocalypse myth that Narek is cherrypicking to fit actual events. Yes, one or two points correspond, mainly the twin sisters. But I didn't see any child-skin drums or chains of skulls anywhere in the show.

Because they killed Dahj before we found out her part in it? Maybe the child skin has something to do with cybernetic research at Daystrom.

The imagery is generic enough (“hell” beasts, destruction of “everything,” “demons” “feasting on the bones of children”), but...

...it’s two sisters, they’re twins, the one (who doesn’t die) uses a pale horn (pale horn-shaped beacon) from the hellbeasts (blueprints in the Admonition) to crack open the sky (it happened) and call all the other “demons” (synths), these ones “really bad demons” (SuperSynths) to come out ravening (kill organics) for a thousand days (it’ll take some time to get to everyone) and worlds will burn (orbital bombardments where they don’t need to go in and individually extract synths?).

Though, he did say that he thought of this as history, not prophesy. Does that mean this happened before in this way (other sister beating drum and all) and, as you say @Christopher, Fractal Neuronic Cloning has to go this way every time, or whether this prophesy is someone’s vision of this generation of synths’ ascent into the trans dimensional synth federation, I don’t know. (Again, I’d prefer greater diversity of synths and different stories of their joining therein. Which would also make this story stand out even more for its specificity to what happens this series.) That’s very close to what happened and not like trying to fit in an any old end of the world vision.

And, really, I don’t immediately accept any of this, but I also don’t casually dismiss it either, especially as this is a television show where usually they’re looking for more story, not less.

Also, the more I watch the episode, the more I think Chabon did mean Vulcan/Sargon. TOS “rewired his brain” he loved it so much, and when asked about the Sikarian trajector he said, “Go deep or go home.” Even if Kirstin Beyer came up with that deep, I can see Chabon coming up with this one.

 

[Christopher]

^Like I said, if you start out with the conclusion you want and then try to make an ancient myth fit it, you'll always succeed, because you can always twist a metaphor to fit any number of different interpretations.

It is always a mistake to try to prove a preconceived notion, because then you will adjust the evidence to fit your theory rather than the reverse. What you should do is try to disprove it, or at least to come up with other possible explanations, and only accept it if you fail to do so. In this case, it is entirely possible that Narek is just reading too much into the very feeble and tenuous similarities between the myth and the reality -- and since people have been doing exactly that for thousands and thousands of years, that makes it immensely more probable than the alternative.

 

[Arpy]

^ I understand your point, and agree with you in real world context, but I don’t in this fictional one for the reasons noted in my last reply.

 

[Christopher]

^ I understand your point, and agree with you in real world context, but I don’t in this fictional one for the reasons noted in my last reply.

And as I said, I find those reasons flimsy and utterly unconvincing, even within the fictional context. The only "evidence" you cite is a few superficial, cherrypicked similarities in one proven liar's apocryphal and uncorroborated characterization of a myth which he has undoubtedly distorted to fit his fanatical beliefs. That's a terrible reason to believe anything.

 

[Arpy]

And as I said, I find those reasons flimsy and utterly unconvincing, even within the fictional context. The only "evidence" you cite is a few superficial, cherrypicked similarities in one proven liar's apocryphal and uncorroborated characterization of a myth which he has undoubtedly distorted to fit his fanatical beliefs. That's a terrible reason to believe anything.

I have to say that I think you’re completely off on this one. They’re not cherry-picked flimsy facts but uncomfortably accurate ones (or they wouldn’t have been so disconcerting/written for the scene). And I don’t think he lied about them or Elnor would have known or library database could have corroborated. It’s attacking the messenger to ignore the information.

 

[Christopher]

They’re not cherry-picked facts but uncomfortably accurate ones (or they wouldn’t have been so disconcerting/written for the scene).

As I've been saying, it is very easy to selectively read things as "accurate" after the fact.

And yes, they are cherrypicked. You are focusing on the small number of details in the myth that match and ignoring the greater number of details that don't match. That is exactly what cherrypicking means. You're also distorting the data to fit, like your claim that the tower is "horn-shaped." This is not "horn-shaped." It's an antenna shape, like a radio tower. The wide end is at the bottom where Soji is, and the signal is coming out at the narrow end up top. That is not how horns work.

 

[Arpy]

As I've been saying, it is very easy to selectively read things as "accurate" after the fact.

Which is why no one in their right mind would believe it before but should pause and consider now knowing what we do know.

And yes, they are cherrypicked. You are focusing on the small number of details in the myth that match and ignoring the greater number of details that don't match.

It’s a disconcerting, highly-improbable, number of details that do match that’s the reason I think both I and Narek find it [possibly] significant, embellishments and distortions of the millennia aside.

You're also distorting the data to fit, like your claim that the tower is "horn-shaped." This is not "horn-shaped." It's an antenna shape, like a radio tower. The wide end is at the bottom where Soji is, and the signal is coming out at the narrow end up top. That is not how horns work.

It’s a giant triangle jutting into the sky calling the bad guys. Obviously to someone who knows what a radio tower is that’s a closer (still wrong) description, but if you’re some primitive, horn is very close indeed. It’s not a trumpet, wide end outward but a devil’s horn pointing up.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s a disconcerting, highly-improbable, number of details that do match that’s the reason I think both I and Narek find it [possibly] significant, embellishments and distortions of the millennia aside.

Elnor sees the same thing and doesn't appear to be convinced.

Again, its cherry picking. It sounds really good but doesn't automatically make it so.

 

[Timo]

Well, it's not really something open to subjective argument when we can do simple statistics.

Everything about the first sister is weird and not obviously related to anything we saw. Depending on how we count, it's one element wrong or too ambiguous, or then three distinct details (drum, skull chain, heart bursting).

There being the female twins is rather central to it all. It's one element sustained. Or two, if we take the gender as a distinct detail.

Of the stuff relating to the second sister, the horn, the blast, the sky cracking, and beasts coming from the crack are four distinct details sustained. The following destruction is utterly generic and never happened, so it's either one thing dead wrong, or six generic descriptions of the destruction dead wrong.

So how are we counting? Three non-trivial things that did happen (twins, females, cracking of sky), supported by generic things that did happen (summoning of evil), against a host of non-trivial things not happening (all the details about the first sister being off the mark as far as we can tell, the whole epic failure to bring about this Armageddon) and a bunch of generic nonsense (horns or not, details of destruction)? Or do we bunch up all the first sister details as one non-trivial failure, and all the Armageddon details as another? Counting the latter way, the prophecy wins three to two on making relevant, non-trivial predictions relating to a single distinct event and, importantly, and as far as we can tell, not relating to the set of all other events in the universe. Counting the former way, the signal is lost in the noise.

Of course, the issue isn't really whether the prediction is an accurate description, before or after the fact. Just as in science, the value is tested in whether it can in fact suggest an upcoming event or phenomenon that can thus be put to a test. And the heroes discuss that very issue moments before the part about cracking the sky for monsters happens. So the prophecy passes that test with flying colors: it helps the heroes divine what will happen if Soji is allowed to act on her otherwise seemingly innocuous project.

Then again, monsters coming from a crack in the sky is rather standard fare in the Star Trek universe. So it may so happen that the prophecy is 100% accurate, but in reference to some other such incident that has already happened, or will happen later on, or took place in a parallel timeline to which the old pre-Vulcans enjoyed some sort of access.

The predicting part here really boils down to one thing: whether, given the initial position of two sisters with demonic qualities appearing, the cracking of sky for passage of monsters will follow. And the prophecy served this purpose nicely enough for the Zhat Vash, to the extent that we could observe a direct and intuitive causal connection between the sisters and the sky-cracking. No such causality is in evidence in all the Nostradamus nonsense, say, nor do we hear of anybody applying Nostradamus to an ongoing event to successfully establish an outcome in advance.

Finally, we shouldn't forget the pretty fundamental Trek aspect of this: of predicting actually being perfectly possible in said universe, with the application of time travel. So prophecies in that universe should not be dismissed on the grounds of there being no acknowledged and verified mechanism for making them; they should instead be critiqued the same way we judge the truth value of a piece of history written by an author with an agenda. Did Napoleon III exist? We have writings, artwork and even photographs of him, and we can with good confidence rule out all of those being forgeries. Will Li Quan exist one day? It depends on whether we can trust or discredit the number of time travelers reporting on his upcoming existence...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Turtletrekker]

I thought that Vulcans came from their parents, just like humans.

 

[Arpy]

Again, if it wasn’t for the ZV and our heroes, the prophesy might have gone otherwise — with Dahj striking a "drum" until she died that way instead of this way. Or maybe the drum is a reference to her studying to get into Daystrom until ZV killed her. (That seems more "flimsy" to me, but, again, I'm not married to any of this.)

When Narek says this is “history,” does he mean that he thinks it happened this way before (with drum and everything else) and he‘s trying to stop it happening again? That repetition of events is too Galactica for me, but Chabon is a fan, and I see bits of its influence in this series, from Synths/Cylons to Oh's command ship being a giant raider (Chabon's favorite episode of Galactica was about a raider).

Or could Narek mean when he says “history” that the prophesy is information from the past to consider now while all this is going on, and he (as a rational modern person) is disturbed by the similarities in the story and the present situation?

I don't know, and I feel like I need to watch the episode again to get a feel for whether or not Narek was simply being slippery around that campfire. He didn't like how they were being dismissive of him. Was that a chip on his shoulder (like he has with Narissa) and he felt that he needed to prove something, and he spat back the prophesy as evidence? Or was he just trying to mess with them to accomplish his mission, and he was cherry-picking or interpreting the prophesy in a specific way? I don’t know.

Again, the prophesy gives me pause because it's not like they're talking about Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in human stories, or an "imbalance of the Elements" from the Rihannsu series, or something else harder to reconcile with the events going on around them. They're talking about sisters, twin ones at that, one of which is dead, the other using a horn, a pale one at that, they’re demons, calling worse demons (by cracking the sky), that have been waiting, to come and kill, kill everyone, including whole worlds. That's a lot.

Now, whether the story has changed in the millennia since the original was told on or before Vulcan — maybe details have changed since the discovery of the Admonition (maybe they were originally three brothers?) — I don't know.

...But how would the Admonition know that twin sisters were to bring forth Ganmadan either? It's just a message left to any synthetic life that finds it — it could have been Exocomps. But it wasn't. And that's what gives me pause.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Drum beating = warning Picard?
Chain of skulls = the necklace with the two interlocking rings?
Heart bursting = the Zhat Vash blowing her up?

It's a stretch...

 

[Timo]

Plus, it's not a relevant element of a testable prophecy: somebody facing Dahj wouldn't even realize she has a twin sister, so nothing would trigger the prophecy-pondering.

Did old Vulcans and pre-Vulcans burn a lot of twins back in their day? What would separate normal female twins from the khalagu? Apparently, one would have to die first, to get the events moving, after which the audiences could go back and check whether she beat any drums or had an abnormal interest in skull-based jewelry. So burning at the stake would only become relevant if the surviving twin took up trombone playing after the not-stake-related death of her sister.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

Plus, it's not a relevant element of a testable prophecy: somebody facing Dahj wouldn't even realize she has a twin sister, so nothing would trigger the prophecy-pondering.

Did old Vulcans and pre-Vulcans burn a lot of twins back in their day? What would separate normal female twins from the khalagu? Apparently, one would have to die first, to get the events moving, after which the audiences could go back and check whether she beat any drums or had an abnormal interest in skull-based jewelry. So burning at the stake would only become relevant if the surviving twin took up trombone playing after the not-stake-related death of her sister.

Timo Saloniemi

I imagine they did as much in their history the name of their religion as we did in ours, or more — their emotions are supposed to be “too” volatile and nearly destroyed them way back when.

I don’t know where I heard the idea that ancient Vulcan looked very different than it does now, and it was a nuclear holocaust that made it a barren desert world of crumbling statues of earlier gods and figures. But I really like how different Vulcan looks (once upon a time with a red sky) and would prefer that be its natural state. ...Maybe the holocaust of two thousand years earlier only tweaked that, and the Vulcans have left the planet (de-irradiated) as it is as a reminder to maintain logic above passion.

 

[Timo]

Diane Duane's Vulcan books suggest the planet was lusher earlier on; onscreen sources do not.

If Vulcans were transported to their desert world by mighty aliens, those aliens probably also adjusted the species to better cope with the desert environment, hence the inner eyelid and perhaps also the whole pon farr thing and touch telepathy and whatnot. Sargon's folks might also have engineered the Vulcan species wholesale, out of cells or basic chemicals or whatnot. But if said aliens just sort of meddled with Vulcan prehistorical culture, those traits are the result of natural evolution - and we sort of have to postulate a lusher planet that would allow for primates to evolve. Although of course not all of Vulcan is sand, and Sarek's mansion is in a wet and cold part of the planet (which also happens to coincide with the hellish Forge - but perhaps the hell there is seasonal, and Archer and pals saw the summer while Mike Burnham narrowly avoided suffering through the even worse winter).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

If the last great synth-caused extinction happened 2-300k yrs ago, the early Vulcans might not have been too intelligent. No more than we were at the time. Or the apocalypse was limited to organic life above a certain threshold of technological development?

I wonder where the first Vulcans evolved from. The Debrune or other homeworld? Personally, I’d rather not overcomplicate the history too much. Maybe they were seeded by the Sargonians and that was that. Narek’s “arrival”/Sargon’s “seeding” meant the genetic manipulation of pre-existing Vulcan life, not a depositing Preserver-style of life from elsewhere. The eyelid could have developed before the nuclear holocaust, Vulcan naturally being very bright.

 

[Ronald Held]

Do not see Sargon's people are needed, since the race Salome Jens' people did earlier genetic changes.