Where did the Vulcans come from?

[Arpy]

The AI that tried to chainsaw its way out of that space hole DID NOT LOOK FRIENDLY!!!!!!!!

It was all a trick.

The were going to murder everyone.

SPOILER WARNING: the links below spoil decades-old episodes of Thundercats and Babylon 5, respectively.

Probably. That said, we shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. Maybe they wouldn’t have despite their, to our eyes, scary look.

Or maybe the beacon was a trick. It was sent to keep the organic a from developing synths and from synths to go to their deaths if they did call the SuperSynths. The SuperSynths know they’re far beyond organics and organics will take a long time to reach them. But synth life might reach them sooner. So, they let synths think they’re calling friends when they’re actually signing their own death warrants when they activate the beacon.

And it serves them right since they do so knowing it would mean galactic biocide. Maybe it’s a test. Less selfish synths wouldn’t activate the beacon and love in peace with organics far away from the SuperSynths. Ones who call them are trouble.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, and thanks to ENT: "Minefield" we're forced to conclude that, in-universe, "Romulan" is their indigenous name. But I was talking about the real-life intent of Paul Schneider when he wrote "Balance of Terror." It's obvious that when he named the twin planets named Romulus and Remus, he was basing those names on Roman mythology and probably intended that they were ascribed by humans to the twin planets, the same way that Europeans have traditionally ascribed their own names to foreign countries rather than using the indigenous ones. The fact that the makers of Enterprise evidently didn't realize that just shows how badly the state of classical education has deteriorated in the United States since the generation of TOS's writers.

More about driving the "Space Romans" point home than anything else, IMO. Along with "Decius", "Centurion" and the toga like drape to the uniforms.

 

[seigezunt]

Although I'm actually loving the idea that "our ancestors arrived on Vulcan" is Romulan propaganda, intended to propagate the myth that it was the Vulcans who left Romulus, not the other way around as in reality.

I like this, and makes sense that such an ancient account might get mixed up. I immediately thought of how different religious traditions flip which son was set to be sacrificed by their father Abraham, Isaac or Ishmael.

 

[Ronald Held]

Easy enough to verify. Analyse the DNA of Vulcans and other life forms on the planet.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Easy enough to verify. Analyse the DNA of Vulcans and other life forms on the planet.

Teraforming, Vulcanforming would seed a lot of foreign life into an alien planet. Even if the planet wasn't Vulcanformed by an automated advance team, the Arks would have bought animals and vegetation from back home to keep the people fed.

 

[Lord Garth]

Probably. That said, we shouldn’t judge a book by its cover. Maybe they wouldn’t have despite their, to our eyes, scary look.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It’s enough to say that we don’t really know and table any speculation until more is revealed. Narek said what he said, it’s all perfectly canon, but for now it’s just one line without context.

 

[Arpy]

Is that a meme or you? Cute kid. That episode stayed with me like it was a parable from the Bible lol

It’s enough to say that we don’t really know and table any speculation until more is revealed. Narek said what he said, it’s all perfectly canon, but for now it’s just one line without context.

I mean, speculation is all we have, but I throw this out to others to work through the information toward better speculations.

Look at threads about starships. Every time a new ship pops up we immediately start speculating about the wartime readiness of the Federation and the local political scene.

 

[Lord Garth]

Is that a meme or you? Cute kid.

That's me. First grade.

 

[Arpy]

That's me. First grade.

My god, what’s happened to you since?

I think I was in first or second grade too at the time. I grew up in Pennsylvania. You?

I remember when TNG premiered a couple years later, I couldn’t chew my pizza whenever Worf was onscreen. His veiny forehead grossed me out.

 

[Lord Garth]

My god, what’s happened to you since?

I think I was in first or second grade too at the time. I grew up in Pennsylvania. You?

Massachusetts, just south of Boston.

I actually didn't see the premiere of TNG in 1987. I didn't start watching until mid-way through. ALF was my big show at the time. My father had to get a second TV set so he could watch MacGuyver, which was on at the same time.

 

[Lord Garth]

Anyway, back on topic... Here's the dialogue from "Return to Tomorrow" (TOS):

Sargon: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonizing this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travelers.

Mulhall: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.

Spock: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.

Sargon: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.

 

[Arpy]

Yup. My little couch potato ass watched Alf and the cartoon version too. I can’t remember if I was disturbed or intrigued by the interpretation of his home planet Melmac but I was definitely disturbed by the little hints they dropped to its impending doom.

MacGuyver had a cool theme song. (Here’s the Season 1 version)

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Anyway, back on topic... Here's the dialogue from "Return to Tomorrow" (TOS):

Sargon: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonizing this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travelers.

Mulhall: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.

Spock: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.

Sargon: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.

Ahem

 

[Arpy]

The issue remains for me: how did the ancient Romulans or Vulcans know how the end was to come? The details of the end were too spot on to be coincidence. Sure, it's possible, but the chances are astronomical, so I'm going to proceed with the assumption that it's not coincidence. So, whether the story originated after the Admonition was created 300k yrs or so ago, or when the Sargonians seeded Vulcan 600k yrs ago, or after the Romulans left Vulcan 2k yrs ago, the point is that someone knew the details of what form the synth Revelation would take.

 

[Christopher]

The issue remains for me: how did the ancient Romulans or Vulcans know how the end was to come? The details of the end were too spot on to be coincidence. Sure, it's possible, but the chances are astronomical, so I'm going to proceed with the assumption that it's not coincidence. So, whether the story originated after the Admonition was created 300k yrs or so ago, or when the Sargonians seeded Vulcan 600k yrs ago, or after the Romulans left Vulcan 2k yrs ago, the point is that someone knew the details of what form the synth Revelation would take.

It's a problematical concept, sure, but I think the intent is that the events are similar because the technology is similar. The premise here is that nobody in the Federation ever managed to recreate a Soong-type android until FNC was developed, so presumably the idea is that FNC is the only way to generate an entire race of Soong-type positronic synths. (Indeed, maybe Soong himself discovered a version of it and that, rather than mere vanity, is why all his androids were identical.) Therefore, the ancient Aians probably used FNC to create their synths as well, and thus they would've also been a race of twins, and presumably roughly half of them would be female, so there was a 50% chance that the myth would be about a twin sister -- hardly a shocking coincidence.

As for the "horn" thing, presumably form would follow function, and thus any device created to summon the robot tentacle thingies would presumably have a similar shape. Although I didn't see anything horn-like about the transmitter tower myself. It seems like a natural enough mythic metaphor for a means of sending an alarm or summoning an armed force.

However, there's a simpler explanation, and it's the same as the explanation for why Nostradamus's prophecies were so accurate: Namely, they weren't. Not even close. They were just deliberately mistranslated centuries later to correspond to actual events after the fact. History is constantly being rewritten and reinterpreted and cherrypicked and twisted to "prove" whatever a present-day group wants it to prove. So just because members of the Zhat Vash -- a fanatical, secretive movement for whom deception is second nature -- claim that an ancient prophecy says something that suits their agenda, that doesn't mean you should believe them. They're the last people you should trust to be objective and truthful about something like that.

 

[Arpy]

The SuperSynth wasn’t a humanoid twin. It’s a little too cute to say that the only artificial life that might doom us is created in this specific form and way. Think Skynet. Or Matrix. Or Cylons. Or that little bit at the end of Neuromancer. I don’t want to give up the diversity of the SuperSynth Federation. I think someone in the past got a look at the future and told it to the ancient Vulcans. They retold it to each other in the imagery of their time, and they abandoned it when Surak came along while the Romulans carried it with them away. When the Admonition was discovered, the “artistic” myth became “scientific” history.

 

[Christopher]

The SuperSynth wasn’t a humanoid twin.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The epithet is unfamiliar to me.

It’s a little too cute to say that the only artificial life that might doom us is created in this specific form and way.

I do not endorse it; I'm merely describing what I believe the writers' intent may have been. I don't think they intended to suggest any literal prophecy or precognition, merely a recurring historical pattern. I agree it's implausible that the pattern would repeat that exactly, but it seems to be what they were implying.

I think someone in the past got a look at the future and told it to the ancient Vulcans. They retold it to each other in the imagery of their time, and they abandoned it when Surak came along while the Romulans carried it with them away. When the Admonition was discovered, the “artistic” myth became “scientific” history.

As I've said, I think that's based on unrealistic assumptions about the immutability of mythology over time. It is never safe to assume that the way a myth is told or interpreted in the present day is the same way it was understood in the distant past, or that it's as ancient as people from today might believe it to be.

 

[Arpy]

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The epithet is unfamiliar to me.

The trans-dimensional tentacled synth in the sky.

I do not endorse it; I'm merely describing what I believe the writers' intent may have been. I don't think they intended to suggest any literal prophecy or precognition, merely a recurring historical pattern. I agree it's implausible that the pattern would repeat that exactly, but it seems to be what they were implying.

I understood it as Narek being more than a bigot and prophesy believer but a very sane grasper of historical likelihood. That was how I interpreted the exchange between Raffi and he. Sure he grew up hearing the tale like you or I about Noah’s Arc, but he only understood it to be more or less true, if highly metaphorical, when he joined the ZV.

As I've said, I think that's based on unrealistic assumptions about the immutability of mythology over time. It is never safe to assume that the way a myth is told or interpreted in the present day is the same way it was understood in the distant past, or that it's as ancient as people from today might believe it to be.

That’s actually the hardest part of the story to believe for me. But, hey, some things do remain for millennia and this one did seem to sync up accurately enough. Plus, I think I like the added mystery of where the prophesy came from.

 

[Christopher]

this one did seem to sync up accurately enough.

Operative word, "seem." Countless prophecies and predictions "seem" to line up with actual events because we cherrypick the details that fit and ignore the ones that don't. We must always be skeptical of our brains' own need to see patterns and correspondences everywhere. It's a valuable tool for recognizing patterns in incomplete data, but it leads to a great many false positives.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They used to come from Vulcanis.