Where did the Vulcans come from?

[Arpy]

^ what’s a couple hundred thousand between friends? But really, times/distances get massaged in Trek a lot. Maybe somehow it fits.

I’ll have to check the like again, but I thought it was that the story was from before the “arrival” on Vulcan, not the discovery of it. The ZV could have only been privy to it well after the banishment/exodus from Vulcan.

 

[Christopher]

^ what’s a couple hundred thousand between friends? But really, times/distances get massaged in Trek a lot. Maybe somehow it fits.

But why would you want it to? On the one hand, we have 50-odd years of reasonably consistent worldbuilding about the Vulcans and Romulans (including Oh's explicit line that it was the Romulans who discovered the Admonition). On the other hand, we have one lousy sentence by Narek. What possible reason is there to throw out the former and embrace the latter?

 

[Arpy]

But why would you want it to? On the one hand, we have 50-odd years of reasonably consistent worldbuilding about the Vulcans and Romulans (including Oh's explicit line that it was the Romulans who discovered the Admonition). On the other hand, we have one lousy sentence by Narek. What possible reason is there to throw out the former and embrace the latter?

I don’t see the conflict. Why would we need to throw out previous canon? The story of the catastrophe is ancient but their discovery of it isn’t until the Romulans found the admonition? Maybe I need to watch the scene again

 

[Christopher]

I don’t see the conflict. Why would we need to throw out previous canon? The story of the catastrophe is ancient but their discovery of it isn’t until the Romulans found the admonition? Maybe I need to watch the scene again

The issue isn't when the catastrophe happened, it's when the Romulans discovered the message its survivors left behind, and the absurdity of Narek's claim that his ancestors came to Vulcan instead of from it.

 

[SolarisOne]

 

[Arpy]

I'm watching the scene again. The story of the end is from before they arrived on Vulcan, but the Admonition I think is left open to be discovered by the ZV more recently. Maybe the Admonition was even more terrifying to the Romulans because it suggested the ancient Vulcan myth were true.

The question becomes how did the imagery of the end (twin sisters, opening a great whole in the sky, from which the demons will come) come to the Vulcans? "End of days" story, sure. Lots of religions have them. (Personally I think they stem from the fear of death. Similarly, ancient utopia stories – Utopia, Shangri-La, Eden, Arcadia, 1776 – from the longing for the peace of childhood long ago.) But that the Ganmadan myth is so close to reality needs explaining.

I think the ancient Vulcans somehow discovered ruins, or somehow heard from organics that eluded the demons, and then incorporated the tale into their mythology – at that time, their religion. How the ruins/survivors knew the way in which Federation cybernetics would fulfill the prophesy is unknown. ...Sargonian intel? Iconian Gateway? Vulcan Nostradamus?

 

[thribs]

Vulcan.

 

[Arpy]

Also, the line could have made easier sense if it were, "Some say it dates back from long before our ancestors arrived on Romulus," or, "...before our ancestors arrived from Vulcan." One little syllable would have changed everything.

 

[thribs]

That line was just a gaffe. I wouldn’t think too much of it.

 

[Christopher]

I'm watching the scene again. The story of the end is from before they arrived on Vulcan, but the Admonition I think is left open to be discovered by the ZV more recently.

As I said, that doesn't work either. 2-300,000 years ago is way too recent for the Vulcans' origin. If they are descended from Sargon's people, they're more than twice that age.

Maybe the Admonition was even more terrifying to the Romulans because it suggested the ancient Vulcan myth was true.

It was so disruptive to Romulan minds because it was designed for synth minds, not organic ones, so it deranged them. Remember, it was exposure to the Admonition that caused the Borg cube to undergo collapse and get cut off from the Collective. So it wasn't about anything specific to the Romulans. They just happened to be the ones who found it, presumably because the octonary system was in Romulan territory or somewhere beyond it.

But that the Ganmadan myth is so close to reality needs explaining.

But the fact that it is a myth means that it has been changed over time, reinterpreted by every generation that told it. Even if we assume the line wasn't a mistake that survived editing, even if we assume Narek genuinely believed the legend was older than Vulcan civilization, that doesn't mean it actually was. People are very, very bad at keeping track of how far in the past things were. We assume cavemen rode dinosaurs, for Pete's sake. So it's not at all uncommon for cultures to believe their mythology or cultural tradition is immensely more older than it actually is. Pretending or believing that it dates from the dawn of time makes it feel more fundamental, more authoritative. Claiming it has the weight of eternity behind it makes it more potent than if it's only a few generations old. It's a common pattern.

Ganmadan was only claimed to be a Romulan myth. It was never said to be Vulcan. Aside from that one stupid line out of Narek's mouth, the entire season was very consistent in portraying all this as a strictly Romulan belief.

I think the ancient Vulcans somehow discovered ruins or somehow heard from *organics that eluded the demons and then incorporated the tale into their mythology – at that time their religion. How the ruins/survivors knew the way in which Federation cybernetics would fulfill the prophesy is unknown. ...Sargonian intel? Iconian Gateway? Vulcan Nostradamus?

They didn't know any such thing about the Federation. As explained in dialogue, the images in the Admonition were not of the future, but of the past cataclysm 200 millennia ago that the Aians believed was destined to repeat itself the next time a civilization developed synths to the same level.

 

[fireproof78]

But that the Ganmadan myth is so close to reality needs explaining.

I don't think it needs explaining. I think the Romulans interpreted it as such and went with it.

Same with many other apocalyptic visions. One need only study Christian eschatology (study of the end of the world) or other apocalyptic works to recognize that they are often cast to fit contemporary times (Hitler as the Antichrist, etc.).

 

[Arpy]

As I said, that doesn't work either. 2-300,000 years ago is way too recent for the Vulcans' origin. If they are descended from Sargon's people, they're more than twice that age.

Maybe later archeologists confirmed different numbers from Spock's. He said it was a recent discovery. Or maybe they aren't descended from Sargonians but influenced by them around that time.

It was so disruptive to Romulan minds because it was designed for synth minds, not organic ones, so it deranged them.

One does not negate the other. It could be both.

Ganmadan was only claimed to be a Romulan myth. It was never said to be Vulcan. Aside from that one stupid line out of Narek's mouth, the entire season was very consistent in portraying all this as a strictly Romulan belief.

Romulans cold have been a sect of Vulcans while still there. Or it could be Romulan myth that kept the Vulcan story alive so they refer to it as such.

They didn't know any such thing about the Federation. As explained in dialogue, the images in the Admonition were not of the future, but of the past cataclysm 200 millennia ago that the Aians believed was destined to repeat itself the next time a civilization developed synths to the same level.

Obviously they didn't know about the Federation, but they pegged how the Federation would bring about intelligent synthetic life. It wasn't a robot or an AI or three synth brothers exploding a star but two sisters, one of whom sounded a great *horn into the sky to call demons.

(EDIT: *I don't know if I was clear, but the beacon actually looked like a giant horn.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Romulans are older than the Vulcans.

Surak invented the Vulcans, so every Vulcanoid was a Romulan before the time of awakening.

 

[Arpy]

But the fact that it is a myth means that it has been changed over time, reinterpreted by every generation that told it.

Yet it survived in tact, more or less, with key details ultimately true. Is that more realistic or less, I dunno. 200-600k years is a long time.

Even if we assume the line wasn't a mistake that survived editing,

Mistake or not, it’s there now. I’m just trying to figure a way to make it fit.

even if we assume Narek genuinely believed the legend was older than Vulcan civilization, that doesn't mean it actually was. People are very, very bad at keeping track of how far in the past things were. We assume cavemen rode dinosaurs, for Pete's sake. So it's not at all uncommon for cultures to believe their mythology or cultural tradition is immensely more older than it actually is. Pretending or believing that it dates from the dawn of time makes it feel more fundamental, more authoritative. Claiming it has the weight of eternity behind it makes it more potent than if it's only a few generations old. It's a common pattern.

Unreliable narrator, sure. But then who’s to say anything we’ve seen or heard in Trek is true? You can get really solipsistic going down that route, and I don’t think that’s as interesting here.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Romulans are older than the Vulcans.

Surak invented the Vulcans, so ever Vulcanoid was a Romulan before the time of awakening.

Well they're called Romulans because they live on Romulus.

So they were Vulcans before they converted to Space Buddha-Jesus and the non-converts left.

 

[Arpy]

^ I think he’s saying that they were called Romulans initially until the Surakians renamed themselves Vulcans? They weren’t, as far as we know, but that’s an imaginative suggestion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Vulcan, Romulus and Reemus are characters from Roman history. It's highly likely that Romulus, Reemus and Vulcan are anglisized translations of an alien language.

Rihannsu.

 

[SolarisOne]

That line was just a gaffe. I wouldn’t think too much of it.

And you know that, how?

 

[Christopher]

Yet it survived in tact, more or less, with key details ultimately true. Is that more realistic or less, I dunno. 200-600k years is a long time.

You're confusing two different things, the Admonition itself and the Romulans' legend of the apocalypse. Just because the Romulans later equated the two doesn't mean they had the same origin. Again, it is a profound, fundamental mistake to assume that the way a present-day culture tells the story of its past must be literally factual. Cultures reinvent their pasts all the time. Even things from as recent as 2-300 years ago are distorted and mythologized (George Washington didn't have wooden teeth or chop down a cherry tree as a boy), let alone ten or a thousand times that long.

Mistake or not, it’s there now. I’m just trying to figure a way to make it fit.

The way to make it fit is it's a mistake. Simple as that. Anything else is unnecessary. All you have to do is be willing to believe that fictional characters are every bit as fallible as real people -- or that the creators of fiction sometimes goof up and let a mistake slip through.

Unreliable narrator, sure. But then who’s to say anything we’ve seen or heard in Trek is true? You can get really solipsistic going down that route, and I don’t think that’s as interesting here.

That kind of blanket generalization makes no sense. It's a matter of assessing each individual claim on its own merits. This specific claim contradicts everything we've previously known, it has zero corroboration by any other data point, and it's spoken by a known liar belonging to a fanatical cult in an authoritarian state, not to mention desperate, exhausted, afraid for his life, and perhaps not thinking entirely clearly. All of that makes it easy to dismiss. That has absolutely nothing to do with the credibility of any other claim, because each case is different.

^ I think he’s saying that they were called Romulans initially until the Surakians renamed themselves Vulcans? They weren’t, as far as we know, but that’s an imaginative suggestion.

Despite that idiotic moment in ENT: "Minefield," they were never meant to call themselves Romulans. The obvious intent in "Balance of Terror" was that it was humans who named their "twin planets" Romulus and Remus after the twins from Roman mythology, and then devised the name "Romulan" based on that. It stood to reason that their name for themselves was different (which was why Diane Duane's novels dubbed them Rihannsu).

For that matter, "Vulcan(ian)" was probably meant to be humans' name for them rather than their own, since it's also a name from Roman mythology.

In any case, it's impossible that the Vulcans originally called themselves Romulans, because then that would've been part of the historical record, and thus it wouldn't have been a surprise in "Balance of Terror" that the Romulans were related to the Vulcans. The connection had to be unknown until then.

 

[thribs]

And you know that, how?

Pretty obvious that it was.