where are the subject races/worlds?

[Gotham Central]

If we are to accept that the Romulans/Klingons/Cardassians etc are threats to the Federation, surely they must occupy relatively vast expanses of space (like the Federation). Indeed most of the maps we've ever seen of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants indicate that all of the major races have fairly large territories. Federation space in particular is shown to be teeming with civilizations. Yet the other empires are all shown to be monocultural. Surely it is not possible that Federation space is the only region filled with alien civilizations. If those empires are large enough to compete with the Federation, and have fleets big enough to challenge Starfleet, surely they MUST have subject worlds.

In "Erand of Mercy," Kirk specifically mentions that the Klingons have conquered numerous worlds. Yet we've heard nothing about these planets in the 24th century. We can only hope that the Federation addressed this in some way before entering into an alliance with the Klingons.

We know that the Cardassians occupied Bajor, but surely there had to be more inhabited worlds within their space given its size? (beyond those in the DMZ)

In all the years of the Trek, only the Dominion and the Borg have clearly been shown to have conquered and incorporated alien worlds into their territory. These worlds must also exist amongst the other empires as well?

Related to this, I wonder what would happen to a world within Federation space that developed the evel of technology for contact with the Federation, but declined to join? How much independence could a world have if it is literally surrounded by the Federation? Would not these worlds become subjects of the Federation whether they wanted to or not?

 

[Vanyel]

The world would most likely remain independent, possibly signing a non aggression pact and/or a mutual defense pact.

However space is vast, the chances of this new world being surrounded on all six sides by the Federation is not too high. Also in First Contact (The episode, not the movie.) Chancellor Durken asked Picard that if he as Chancellor asked the Federation to go away and stay away would they. Picard confirmed that it was true, if asked they would stay away until contacted and asked to return.

 

[Captrek]

The world would most likely remain independent, possibly signing a non aggression pact and/or a mutual defense pact.

But like Gotham said, “How much independence could a world have if it is literally surrounded by the Federation?”

What if this nominally independent world wanted to invite some Romulan warbirds over for a visit? Would the Federation allow the Romulan warbirds to enter Federation space? Of course not; to do so would seriously compromise Federation security. Traffic to and from this world would be entirely subject to Federation approval. Hardly independent.

What if this world wanted to purchase military technology from the Romulans and create a powerful military base inside Federation space? Would the Federation allow that? Of course not, as it would compromise Federation security. The Federation would have to limit the military development of this world. Hardly independent.

Any world in Federation space that is not a Federation member would have to be a Federation protectorate. There could be no true independence.

 

[captcalhoun]

conquered worlds are there we just don't see them because the stories either feature the homeworld or the military and probably like many empires on earth, the military doesn't allow in the subject species, or if they do allow them in, they're probably in crappy jobs not serving on starship bridges.

 

[Vanyel]

The world would most likely remain independent, possibly signing a non aggression pact and/or a mutual defense pact.

But like Gotham said, “How much independence could a world have if it is literally surrounded by the Federation?”

What if this nominally independent world wanted to invite some Romulan warbirds over for a visit? Would the Federation allow the Romulan warbirds to enter Federation space? Of course not; to do so would seriously compromise Federation security. Traffic to and from this world would be entirely subject to Federation approval. Hardly independent.

What if this world wanted to purchase military technology from the Romulans and create a powerful military base inside Federation space? Would the Federation allow that? Of course not, as it would compromise Federation security. The Federation would have to limit the military development of this world. Hardly independent.

Any world in Federation space that is not a Federation member would have to be a Federation protectorate. There could be no true independence.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it does sound like you are thinking 2 dimensionally. A system would have to have other systems in an immense cube all around it. These systems would have to packed in tight and every square millimeter would have to be under Federation Control. The Romulans could fly "over" or "under" or around Federation space to get to the system. We are not talking about Lesotho.

And even if the Federation did control 100% of the space around the system, they couldn't control what other allies that system makes.

Also if the Federation controlled 100% of the space around the system, the question arises would the Federation stop a diplomatic envoy from the Romulans? Doing so could be an act of war.

So yeah the Federation would let them be independent, but would most likely bend over backwards to keep the system happy in its place.

 

[Timo]

Haven't we seen enough examples of adversarial starships or fleets moving through nominal UFP holdings unchallenged? The Klingons and the Romulans repeatedly got to DS9 somehow, even though they supposedly live on the opposite side of the UFP; they arrived unannounced, yet the rather clear implication of their recent passage through UFP space never triggered any diplomatic incidents or other conflicts.

Probably all star empires worth the name do claim sovereignty to vast volumes of empty space between their subject worlds. But probably none of them can enforce that sovereignty, since even uncloaked ships are often seen penetrating deep without raising attention. It shouldn't be impossible for a "surrounded" world to communicate with the universe, then, not unless the world was deliberately and properly "besieged" as well.

That said, of course there would be some pressure for a UFP-surrounded world to join the UFP eventually. Yet I doubt the terms would be particularly limiting: we've seen UFP membership given to worlds that practice ritual dueling to death, or physically demanding slave labor, or other "inhuman" customs, and we've seen an easygoing "black market", "under-the-counter" aspect to UFP frontier life. A passable substitute for independence, perhaps.

It's not as if a nascent little planet could truly remain independent in any circumstances, after all. Sooner rather than later, somebody would come and add this resource to his collection...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

We have had mentions of Klingon subject worlds vying for their independence in TNG. It's just that it would cost a lot more to have different aliens comprising the crews of other vessels (which is why we see so many humans on Fed ships) so either they're just not seen or they aren't allowed to join the Space forces of their conquerors.