Where are the older people in the crew?
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Yeah, you basically did.
Sometimes I wonder if people on the internet are so rigid and perceive everything to be so literal in their real lives too... if you would open your mind up for a second and stop taking everything on the internet literally, I was commenting on the idea that because it's starfleets first mission, that they would send expendable people. My contention was that it is not logical to send expendable people on your worlds first deep space mission...
Does you understand now?
Wasn't the command staff shown the proper deference and respect in the Deadly Years, at least until they were close to kicking the bucket? Hell, their more mature looks gave them a distinguished air, at least according to Kirk.
Maybe its a generational thing or as simple as the different hair styles and makeup of the time, but doesn't the appearance of a sizable majority of the TOS crew seem rather older than their analogous counterparts in the later series? I will discount an outlier like Finney. That was essentially the point in his case, time and career advancement passing him by, etc.. I'm thinking of your anonymous, run-of-the-mill, just waiting to die Redshirts who more likely would be rather youthful. Compared with, say, the DQ fodder on Voyager, on average these folks just look quite a bit more seasoned.
Perhaps, even then, well into the decline of the studio system, bit parts, walk-ons and the like were much less likely to be bestowed on relative young'uns than was the case just a decade or so later, even for an outre SCI-FI tv show of the age.
Maybe its a generational thing or as simple as the different hair styles and makeup of the time, but doesn't the appearance of a sizable majority of the TOS crew seem rather older than their analogous counterparts in the later series? I will discount an outlier like Finney. That was essentially the point in his case, time and career advancement passing him by, etc.. I'm thinking of your anonymous, run-of-the-mill, just waiting to die Redshirts who more likely would be rather youthful. Compared with, say, the DQ fodder on Voyager, on average these folks just look quite a bit more seasoned.
Perhaps, even then, well into the decline of the studio system, bit parts, walk-ons and the like were much less likely to be bestowed on relative young'uns than was the case just a decade or so later, even for an outre SCI-FI tv show of the age.
No habla.
During the Xindi arc, if anyone on board WASN'T expendible, it was the macos.
The people Starfleet removed from the ship to make room for the maco contingent would have been the definition of expendible.
I've never heard a character in Trek say he was only using Starfleet as a stepping stone to something else. In 24th century era Trek you get the definite impression that Starfleet work is their identity and greatest ambition. Let's also remember that in peacetime eras of Trek it's made clear that there's incredible competition just to get into the Academy. In TNG they are put through an academic battle royale and in DS9 it's implied that member planets need near-perfect grades and nonmember planets need explicit recommendations from command level officers even to be considered.
Starfleet does not need to advertise to people who only intend to stay for a short tour then collect benefits because unlike the real life military, there's more than enough recruits who intend to make it their career. Maybe in DS9 during the Dominion War there were more people on temporary tours.
Starfleet does not need to advertise to people who only intend to stay for a short tour then collect benefits because unlike the real life military, there's more than enough recruits who intend to make it their career. Maybe in DS9 during the Dominion War there were more people on temporary tours.
Where are the older people? Have you ever heard of Soylent Green?
One of the things about TOS is that it isn't obvious that the majority of the officers even went to a academy. Kirk, Mitchell, maybe Spock and Chekov.
In TNG/DS9/VOY there's usually dialog at some point informing the audience that the majority of the main characters we see are academy grads, not so with TOS. McCoy didn't go, my impression is that Uhura might have come up through the ranks, I could easily see Scotty being a OTS type.
They've got The Ripe Stuff.And they're all old!!!!^ Maybe they wouldn't send expendable people, but perhaps they would send Expendables.
(And don't tell me you wouldn't love to see THOSE guys in Trek...)
I wouldn't say Bones didn't go to the academy, but he seems to have joined Starfleet later in his life than Kirk or Chekov. Spock was a generalist, so I see him going to Starfleet Academy, but having more science class than someone like Kirk. Chekov's former girlfriend was at the Academy with him before turning hippie and also a general training in science. I think engineers also need to go to the Academy to be sure they're able to deal with Starfleet own technology.One of the things about TOS is that it isn't obvious that the majority of the officers even went to a academy. Kirk, Mitchell, maybe Spock and Chekov.
In TNG/DS9/VOY there's usually dialog at some point informing the audience that the majority of the main characters we see are academy grads, not so with TOS. McCoy didn't go, my impression is that Uhura might have come up through the ranks, I could easily see Scotty being a OTS type.
I will also point out this quote from The Ultimate Computer. Geologist Carstairs served on merchant marine freighters in this area. Once visited planet on geology survey for mining company. So perhaps Carstairs went to the academy, but he didn't enter there at 18. I also think it's easier to recruit someonew who's already geologist than recruiting untrained 17 years kid both interested by Stlarfeet and geology.
Elitism wasn't in TOS, it clearly appeared with TNG.
I don't think it was ever explicitly stated in TOS either way, but "The Ultimate Computer" hinted that he never attended the Academy, because he wasn't familiar with slang that was in use at the Academy.
Of course, that didn't stop the Starfleet Academy books from assuming he did. And of course nuMcCoy attended Starfleet Academy, FWIW.
(Speaking of McCoy and "older people"... I always assumed McCoy was at least a decade older than Kirk in TOS, but according to the age Data mentioned in "Encounter at Farpoint", he was actually only six years older than Kirk, and McCoy was actually younger in TOS than DeForest Kelley was at the time.)
Maybe Starfleet was more popular in the 24th century than the 23rd century.
Maybe he just wasn't that social. To know current Academy slang, you'd have to hang out with the cadets who speak it. McCoy probably didn't have time for that.
In the real world I think Doctors and other professionals who join go through some military and officer training. The US Army website says the training takes ten to fourteen weeks.
TerraNovan
Lieutenant Commander
I have several theories that seem to make alot of sense. If we use the assumption that VOY and DS9 were designed to be atypical only TNG is in the modern time frame.
1) the obvious which is that most characters are far older than they appear. Picard is 12 years older than the actor that plays him, and he seems to have no interest in his cosmetic appearance. In my life time hair dye has become the norm for aging folk like my parents. if picard chooses to be bald, its logical to assume many character are 20-30 years older than they appear.
2) Understanding that we basically only ever see the bridge crew and there are 1000 crew members on the ship we never see, a whole lot of people who have no interest in becoming captains or long term career officers.
3) Its logical to assume that a flag ship is in part basically a giant university. As its obvious ones education never ends in star trek. So many are likely only on board as a stepping stone to something else, especially the non coms. While there is no money its still possible that many people still earn things they desire(i.e. shuttle crafts, terraforming units, etc)
4) In the utopian future people have plenty of options. Being on a ship is just one of them. While it may feel like great fun to tour the galaxy for many people as they mature will likely look to other things. When you have unlimited options many folk would not want to spend 50 years of their life, taking orders performing routine functions of a ship. Life for the non bridges officers one could guess would be far duller than being at an independent research station. Become a full time musician, take command of a small ship, get involved in politics, start families etc.
5) federation resources are not unlimited. While its clear no one is working for pay, there still is obviously limits to how many ships can be built. It would seem logical that officers are rotated giving everyone a shot to be on a board a major vessel.
6) Its likely that in a future where primary resources are unlimited, and working is optional, most federation folk are far more focused on a family life than anything else. Statistically cultures that are family focused dominate the federation. As each generation grows faster than the less family oriented cultures. Meaning there is a sever baby boom going on. Families of 5-6 children may be typical for much of the federation. So there are probably far more young people than are old.
1) the obvious which is that most characters are far older than they appear. Picard is 12 years older than the actor that plays him, and he seems to have no interest in his cosmetic appearance. In my life time hair dye has become the norm for aging folk like my parents. if picard chooses to be bald, its logical to assume many character are 20-30 years older than they appear.
2) Understanding that we basically only ever see the bridge crew and there are 1000 crew members on the ship we never see, a whole lot of people who have no interest in becoming captains or long term career officers.
3) Its logical to assume that a flag ship is in part basically a giant university. As its obvious ones education never ends in star trek. So many are likely only on board as a stepping stone to something else, especially the non coms. While there is no money its still possible that many people still earn things they desire(i.e. shuttle crafts, terraforming units, etc)
4) In the utopian future people have plenty of options. Being on a ship is just one of them. While it may feel like great fun to tour the galaxy for many people as they mature will likely look to other things. When you have unlimited options many folk would not want to spend 50 years of their life, taking orders performing routine functions of a ship. Life for the non bridges officers one could guess would be far duller than being at an independent research station. Become a full time musician, take command of a small ship, get involved in politics, start families etc.
5) federation resources are not unlimited. While its clear no one is working for pay, there still is obviously limits to how many ships can be built. It would seem logical that officers are rotated giving everyone a shot to be on a board a major vessel.
6) Its likely that in a future where primary resources are unlimited, and working is optional, most federation folk are far more focused on a family life than anything else. Statistically cultures that are family focused dominate the federation. As each generation grows faster than the less family oriented cultures. Meaning there is a sever baby boom going on. Families of 5-6 children may be typical for much of the federation. So there are probably far more young people than are old.
One of the strange things about Riker being first officer for so long (imo) is that you would think Starfleet would want to place a new first officer under Picard every couple of year for tutelage, even if Riker didn't want to leave.
Yeah, his issues with Shelby and Jellico were partly based on the fact he was still XO on the Enterprise. Shelby talked about this job like a training for young officers who are clearly future Captain and Jellico said "he can see why [Riker]'s still only a first officer." I suppose they don't have problem with someone who becomes First Officer after 25 years in Stafleet. It's simply this assignment would be normally a short step for a young star like Riker.
Shelby was highly competitive, but what she shocked her was not the idea of leaving Starfleet, but the stagnation. Leaving Starfleet never seemed to be taboo.
That's why I see the last step of Picard's trip in Tapestry as something staged by Q and not a plausible result: this Picard would have already left Starfleet since many years.
Shelby was highly competitive, but what she shocked her was not the idea of leaving Starfleet, but the stagnation. Leaving Starfleet never seemed to be taboo.
That's why I see the last step of Picard's trip in Tapestry as something staged by Q and not a plausible result: this Picard would have already left Starfleet since many years.
TerraNovan
Lieutenant Commander
Thats a real good point, especially when you realize he almost left starfleet after the borg.
Even one of the biggest names in the federation wasnt that keen on being a lifer. Pretty much all the older officers had given more than a thought to resigning.
Picard almost did, Sisqo was planning on it in ep 1, tuvok resigned and came back, obrien wanted to goto earth and teach, janeway had no choice, chatkotay was a maquis leader , only crusher was a long time officer, and she magically disappear in 2365
