When Will the Novels Catch Up the Events Preceding the Reboot?

[Mjolnir2000]

I'm not sure how it could be saved, we see Spock's memory of the destruction of Romulus. That's pretty hard to interpret any other way.

But even if Romulus were somehow saved, it's basically undoing Nero's whole character arc in Trek XI. Remember, Nero wasn't always an evil guy, he was just an honest hardworking average Joe until the destruction of his home and death of his family drove him into a murderous rage thereby resulting in him destroying key Federation worlds. What an embarrassment it would be to find out Romulus was saved and he was killing billions of people for nothing.

Hmm, that could make for a good scene.

Nero: "IT HAPPENED! I SAW IT HAPPEN! I KNOW IT HAPPENED! DON'T TELL ME IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!"
TARDIS noise is heard as TARDIS appears behind Nero. Matt Smith Doctor walks out.
Doctor: "Hello, Nero, I have news. It turns out you are wrong, the destruction of Romulus didn't in fact happen. Myself and my other incarnations flew around Romulus just before the supernova hit and shifted the planet into a pocket universe. It's safe, your people and family are all okay."
Tom Baker Curator steps out of TARDIS.
Curator: "Romulus falls No More!"
Doctor: "Exactly. So, all of this, destroying Vulcan, killing its population and the crews of those Starfleet rescue ships, torturing that poor fella there, is kind of all for nothing."
Nero stares at the Doctor, wide eyed and full of confused regret. Nero then turns to Captain Pike, strapped to the table with a Ceti eel wriggling around his ear.
Nero: "...Sorry...?"

What matters to Nero's arc is that he genuinely believes that Romulus was destroyed, and that it was Spock's fault. Whether that actually happened is in many ways irrelevant, just as Gallifrey not actually being destroyed doesn't undo the Doctor's arc prior to the anniversary special. And anyway, 99.999% of the movie audience would never even know that things happened differently in the books.

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

 

[Sci]

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

Not really. If anything, the Romulans these days are part of what's keeping the Pact relatively less threatening than it could be. Remove the Romulans, and suddenly there's no real check against the imperial ambitions of the Breen (and, to a lesser extent, the Tzenkethi and Tholians).

 

[Idran]

What matters to Nero's arc is that he genuinely believes that Romulus was destroyed, and that it was Spock's fault. Whether that actually happened is in many ways irrelevant, just as Gallifrey not actually being destroyed doesn't undo the Doctor's arc prior to the anniversary special. And anyway, 99.999% of the movie audience would never even know that things happened differently in the books.

99.999% of the movie audience would never even know if the TOS crew was slaughtered by a sentient cabbage, that doesn't mean it'd be a good idea.

The argument isn't the impact it would have on the movie audience as a whole, but rather the segment of the novel audience that is also part of the movie audience.

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

Even ignoring Sci's counterargument about why 2) doesn't apply, I'd say it's not Romulus that's awesome, it's Romulans that are awesome. Romulus being destroyed would destabilize the RSE, but it certainly wouldn't end it. It's not like destroying Vulcan, the Empire spans tens of light years and at least a dozen or two full worlds. (Though admittedly it was even then a bit unbelievable that fewer than a million Vulcans survived, as though there were nearly no Vulcan colonies in semi-contradiction to what we saw in Enterprise.)

And anyway, I'd say that the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of sticking with the 2009 events and the resulting recovery the RSE would be forced to go through being high quality are greater than the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of subverting the 2009 events and having Romulus just be "nope we're still here" being high quality, since...what storyline is that? That's not a start to a storyline, that's an end to one. That's cutting potential future directions, not introducing them; that's a capstone. And the plot leading up to a capstone needs to be at least as good as the capstone itself for it to be worth it. Destiny was worth it because it was more than awesome enough to live up to capping of the Borg, while so many people dislike Before Dishonor because they think it wasn't nearly good enough to live up to capping off Janeway.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Not really. If anything, the Romulans these days are part of what's keeping the Pact relatively less threatening than it could be. Remove the Romulans, and suddenly there's no real check against the imperial ambitions of the Breen (and, to a lesser extent, the Tzenkethi and Tholians).

Except that you're not really removing the Romulans by destroying their capital. Romulus' destruction would certainly hurt the RSE but it wouldn't wipe it off the map; the Federation wouldn't cease to exist if Earth suddenly disappeared, nor would the Klingon Empire die off if Qo'nos were destroyed.

In any case, I agree with your assessment that the Romulans represent perhaps the most moderate part of the TP. Any destabilization of the RSE would make a conflict between the Typhon Pact and the Khitomer Alliance more likely, not less. There are rumors circulating that Sisko's long-term exploratory mission to the Gamma Quadrant will be called off at the last minute by Starfleet, as the good captain will learn that he's needed closer to home; perhaps the TP starts stirring up trouble in conjunction with the turmoil in Romulan space?

--Sran

 

[Mjolnir2000]

What matters to Nero's arc is that he genuinely believes that Romulus was destroyed, and that it was Spock's fault. Whether that actually happened is in many ways irrelevant, just as Gallifrey not actually being destroyed doesn't undo the Doctor's arc prior to the anniversary special. And anyway, 99.999% of the movie audience would never even know that things happened differently in the books.

99.999% of the movie audience would never even know if the TOS crew was slaughtered by a sentient cabbage, that doesn't mean it'd be a good idea.

The argument isn't the impact it would have on the movie audience as a whole, but rather the segment of the novel audience that is also part of the movie audience.

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

Even ignoring Sci's counterargument about why 2) doesn't apply, I'd say it's not Romulus that's awesome, it's Romulans that are awesome. Romulus being destroyed would destabilize the RSE, but it certainly wouldn't end it. It's not like destroying Vulcan, the Empire spans tens of light years and at least a dozen or two full worlds. (Though admittedly it was even then a bit unbelievable that fewer than a million Vulcans survived, as though there were nearly no Vulcan colonies in semi-contradiction to what we saw in Enterprise.)

And anyway, I'd say that the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of sticking with the 2009 events and the resulting recovery the RSE would be forced to go through being high quality are greater than the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of subverting the 2009 events and having Romulus just be "nope we're still here" being high quality, since...what storyline is that? That's not a start to a storyline, that's an end to one. That's cutting potential future directions, not introducing them; that's a capstone. And the plot leading up to a capstone needs to be at least as good as the capstone itself for it to be worth it. Destiny was worth it because it was more than awesome enough to live up to capping of the Borg, while so many people dislike Before Dishonor because they think it wasn't nearly good enough to live up to capping off Janeway.

Both good points. You know the Romulans have an awful lot of bad luck in the past 6 years. First Shinzon, then losing Remus, then the schism, and now we've got Hobus coming up to wipe out the homeworld and probably any other major planets nearby. Why can we have something bad happen to Earth for once? Maybe I'm just annoyed because I always thought they had such potential as an adversary, but we've never really seen them shine. Nemesis was about humans and remans, and 2009 just had the one ship. Maybe I should start reading the Romulan War books. What I really want is a massive storyline filled with cunning plans that actually work, push the Federation to the brink, and even after the Federation is victorious, you're left with the impression that the Romulans are equals rather than yet another bad guy that the crew of the Enterprise will invariably outsmart every single time. Maybe you could even end it Star Trek VI style, where the whole thing turns into them being allies with the Federation, and that would put a strain on relations with the Klingons so that they could become the villains again.

 

[SicOne]

There's no ambiguity. Romulus has gone the way of Krypton . . . .

Treklit obviously has to follow on screen canon, but accepting that Romulus must be destroyed, (and I'll avoid potential story ideas as well as I can manage), could the novels then come up with a way for things to be changed and for something else to have happened instead ?

It is sic-fi after all...

Sic-fi?

I like it.

 

[DimesDan]

I can't find the post, but one of the admins posted a theory about the interaction between Nero and Pike in Star Trek, I think it was in the area that one cannot mention outside of that area.

Basically put, Nero is the "old school Trek" fan who believes that Trek has been destroyed and you can't view it anymore and Pike's saying, well, no, it's still out there and you can watch it to your hearts content.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I can't find the post, but one of the admins posted a theory about the interaction between Nero and Pike in Star Trek, I think it was in the area that one cannot mention outside of that area.

Basically put, Nero is the "old school Trek" fan who believes that Trek has been destroyed and you can't view it anymore and Pike's saying, well, no, it's still out there and you can watch it to your hearts content.

I really like that interpretation.

 

[Christopher]

(Though admittedly it was even then a bit unbelievable that fewer than a million Vulcans survived, as though there were nearly no Vulcan colonies in semi-contradiction to what we saw in Enterprise.)

Here's Spock's line:

Nero, who has destroyed my home planet and most of its six billion inhabitants. While the essence of our culture has been saved in the elders who now reside upon the ship, I estimate no more than ten thousand have survived.

It seems probable to me that Spock is referring back to the immediately previous sentence -- no more than ten thousand of the planet's six billion. He's referring specifically to the Vulcans who were on the planet and managed to escape in time, rather than to all Vulcans everywhere. After all, he said that many "have survived," i.e. have escaped the disaster. The Vulcans living elsewhere in the galaxy weren't in danger to begin with. Yes, you can use "survive" to mean "outlive," e.g. an obituary saying that the deceased is survived by their relatives. But I think the use of "ten thousand have survived" rather than "ten thousand survive" is telling, since it's referring to a completed action in the past. So I think he was referring only to those who survived a specific event, namely the planet's destruction.

True, he does go on to say Vulcans are an endangered species, but that can be dismissed as hyperbole, given how bleak things must have looked to him at that moment. As his older self pointed out, he was emotionally compromised.

 

[Idran]

(Though admittedly it was even then a bit unbelievable that fewer than a million Vulcans survived, as though there were nearly no Vulcan colonies in semi-contradiction to what we saw in Enterprise.)

Here's Spock's line:

Nero, who has destroyed my home planet and most of its six billion inhabitants. While the essence of our culture has been saved in the elders who now reside upon the ship, I estimate no more than ten thousand have survived.

It seems probable to me that Spock is referring back to the immediately previous sentence -- no more than ten thousand of the planet's six billion. He's referring specifically to the Vulcans who were on the planet and managed to escape in time, rather than to all Vulcans everywhere. After all, he said that many "have survived," i.e. have escaped the disaster. The Vulcans living elsewhere in the galaxy weren't in danger to begin with. Yes, you can use "survive" to mean "outlive," e.g. an obituary saying that the deceased is survived by their relatives. But I think the use of "ten thousand have survived" rather than "ten thousand survive" is telling, since it's referring to a completed action in the past. So I think he was referring only to those who survived a specific event, namely the planet's destruction.

True, he does go on to say Vulcans are an endangered species, but that can be dismissed as hyperbole, given how bleak things must have looked to him at that moment. As his older self pointed out, he was emotionally compromised.

Oh, that is a reasonable interpretation that I hadn't considered. That is a bit more sensible, then.

 

[The Wormhole]

What matters to Nero's arc is that he genuinely believes that Romulus was destroyed, and that it was Spock's fault. Whether that actually happened is in many ways irrelevant, just as Gallifrey not actually being destroyed doesn't undo the Doctor's arc prior to the anniversary special.

In my opinion, Gallifrey's destruction being prevented did negate the Doctor's arc and character development prior to Day of the Doctor, but that's a conversation more suited to the Doctor Who forum.

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

Personally, I think removing a major power like the Romulans would create enough storytelling possibilities meaning Romulus need not be saved. I doubt the loss of Romulus would lead to the fall of the Typhon Pact, and even if it did, so what?

Spoiler: spoiler coding this in case it can be interpreted as a story idea

The Breen are the only openly aggressive race in the Pact, so they could easily become the prominent aggressor in in novel continuity.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

In terms of personal desire - and hopefully steering clear of actual story ideas with this description - I hope that the novels, upon taking us through the events of Hobus and its aftermath, choose an inspirational rather than gloom-driven approach. I hope they spin it as a tragic but ultimately uplifting series of events.

Spoiler: Same caution as above

Let us watch the Romulans reclaim their noble history as survivors and dispossessed refugees, as settlers struggling to build The People's Empire and carve out a proud nation in exile, having lost their central planet. Have everyone else (even the Klingons and Breen) supporting them in stabilizing the region, rebuilding, providing aid, etc. The Romulans have become the key to keeping the two sides in balance; they're too important to write off. Shoring up the Star Empire is a project all can justify, while feeling good about it too. It can be the big crisis that eases the Khitomer Accord nations and the Pact into a comfortable relationship. And lets the Romulans finally stop living on the outskirts glaring in, and feel themselves to be part of the core again. Let the Romulans finally trust.

 

[Enterpriserules]

In terms of personal desire - and hopefully steering clear of actual story ideas with this description - I hope that the novels, upon taking us through the events of Hobus and its aftermath, choose an inspirational rather than gloom-driven approach. I hope they spin it as a tragic but ultimately uplifting series of events.

Spoiler: Same caution as above

Let us watch the Romulans reclaim their noble history as survivors and dispossessed refugees, as settlers struggling to build The People's Empire and carve out a proud nation in exile, having lost their central planet. Have everyone else (even the Klingons and Breen) supporting them in stabilizing the region, rebuilding, providing aid, etc. The Romulans have become the key to keeping the two sides in balance; they're too important to write off. Shoring up the Star Empire is a project all can justify, while feeling good about it too. It can be the big crisis that eases the Khitomer Accord nations and the Pact into a comfortable relationship. And lets the Romulans finally stop living on the outskirts glaring in, and feel themselves to be part of the core again. Let the Romulans finally trust.

I think this is exactly what I have been hoping for and think it would make for an incredible story.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^^I agree with that, Nasat. I'd like to see a scenario similar to what happened after Praxis exploded, with the Federation extending some sort of olive branch to the Romulans. I won't go into specifics due to board rules, but I agree that this should be looked at as an opportunity for the Alpha Quadrant to rise above the endless fleet jockeying and political bickering that's dominated its landscape for much of the 24th century.

--Sran

 

[Relayer1]

There's no ambiguity. Romulus has gone the way of Krypton . . . .

Treklit obviously has to follow on screen canon, but accepting that Romulus must be destroyed, (and I'll avoid potential story ideas as well as I can manage), could the novels then come up with a way for things to be changed and for something else to have happened instead ?

It is sic-fi after all...

Sic-fi?

I like it.

Hmm, you'd better get writing !

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also in the movie Nero mentions seeing Romulus destroyed (in 2387), but then Pike mentions that Romulus still exists (in 2256) and tries to tell Nero that he was mental..

Not sure that how that is relevant? As pointed out above - from Pike's point of view none of that has happened - however the movie does not set this up as a point of debate or make this ambiguous. Indeed, Later Spock explicitly states that "The supernova destroyed Romulus".

You guys are all idiots. Yeah from Pike's point of view Romulus was still around in 2256, but Nero's whole purpose for firing on Spock's ship is due to Nero having seen Romulus destroyed, and his wife and kids killed in 2387. And Nero was telling Pike that when Pike says that Nero must be mistaken since Romulus still existed in 2256.

Pike doesn't realize (at first, anyway) that Nero is from the future, does he? I'm sure Pike was assuming that Nero was just some random psycho who thought Romulus had JUST BEEN destroyed. If Pike had no idea of the time travel involved, then he'd have every reason to dismiss Nero's rantings.

 

[JD]

As for the *why* you might want Romulus to be saved in the novel-verse, because (1) Romulus is awesome, and (2) the Romulans are essential to maintaining the balance of power the Alpha/Beta quadrants. Throw the Star Empire into turmoil and the Typhon pact is no longer a threat, and suddenly you either have to come up with stories where the Khitomer Accord powers have essentially no competition, or you need to make up a new adversary not from local space (as the Borg are gone, and the Dominion are isolationist).

And anyway, I'd say that the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of sticking with the 2009 events and the resulting recovery the RSE would be forced to go through being high quality are greater than the odds of the potential plotlines that could come out of subverting the 2009 events and having Romulus just be "nope we're still here" being high quality, since...what storyline is that? That's not a start to a storyline, that's an end to one. That's cutting potential future directions, not introducing them; that's a capstone. And the plot leading up to a capstone needs to be at least as good as the capstone itself for it to be worth it. Destiny was worth it because it was more than awesome enough to live up to capping of the Borg, while so many people dislike Before Dishonor because they think it wasn't nearly good enough to live up to capping off Janeway.

I definitely agree that there is a lot more potential in destroying Romulus than finding a way to leave it intact. It would be a huge shift in the status quo, but these kind of shifts have a lot more story potential than just leaving everything the same forever.

 

[Greg Cox]

Not sure that how that is relevant? As pointed out above - from Pike's point of view none of that has happened - however the movie does not set this up as a point of debate or make this ambiguous. Indeed, Later Spock explicitly states that "The supernova destroyed Romulus".

You guys are all idiots. Yeah from Pike's point of view Romulus was still around in 2256, but Nero's whole purpose for firing on Spock's ship is due to Nero having seen Romulus destroyed, and his wife and kids killed in 2387. And Nero was telling Pike that when Pike says that Nero must be mistaken since Romulus still existed in 2256.

Pike doesn't realize (at first, anyway) that Nero is from the future, does he? I'm sure Pike was assuming that Nero was just some random psycho who thought Romulus had JUST BEEN destroyed. If Pike had no idea of the time travel involved, then he'd have every reason to dismiss Nero's rantings.

That my was my impression. Pike and Co. hadn't figured out the time-travel business yet, so Pike was genuinely baffled when Nero started ranting at him about Romulus's destruction.

Nero sounded like a lunatic, which certainly fit his behavior as well. And Lord knows charismatic madmen have been known to attract followers, so the fact that Nero's men obeyed didn't exactly disapprove the lunatic theory . . . .

 

[Sci]

Not really. If anything, the Romulans these days are part of what's keeping the Pact relatively less threatening than it could be. Remove the Romulans, and suddenly there's no real check against the imperial ambitions of the Breen (and, to a lesser extent, the Tzenkethi and Tholians).

Except that you're not really removing the Romulans by destroying their capital. Romulus' destruction would certainly hurt the RSE but it wouldn't wipe it off the map; the Federation wouldn't cease to exist if Earth suddenly disappeared, nor would the Klingon Empire die off if Qo'nos were destroyed.

Pardon me; I wasn't trying to say that the entire Romulan Star Empire would cease to exist upon Romulus's destruction. Rather, my assumption was that the destruction of the capital planet would severely compromise the Star Empire's ability to project power beyond its core territories--essentially "removing them from the table" in terms of interstellar power politics, even if the Imperial Fleet remains the single most powerful military force within Romulan space.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Someone asked this at Shore Leave last year, and Dayton Ward basically said that no one had any idea what the plan was, but that he felt it was good that after The Fall the chronological pace was slowing down so the novels wouldn't reach it very soon.

Also, resettling the surviving Romulans and Remans on a "New Romulus" (or the Vulcans on "New Vulcan" in the other timeline) would, after a time, start to become indistinguishable to the previous status quos. Sure, their populations are greatly reduced, but the races weren't eradicated. Both had starships out on patrol and (presumably) citizens living on colony worlds which weren't destroyed by Hobus or Nero.