When was Dr Piper CMO of the Enterprise?

[Damian]

There's no way "All Those Years Ago..." and E:TFA can tie together, since they're both depicting Kirk's first mission as Enterprise captain and they do it in massively different ways. They give different names to Kirk's former command (Saladin vs. Lydia Sutherland), ATYA has Gary Mitchell in a major role while E:TFA has him injured before the story to justify his absence, ATYA has Pike accompany Kirk on his first mission, etc.

Part of the reason I wanted to do The Captain's Oath is because I realized it had been a surprisingly long time since Pocket had done a new version of Kirk's first Enterprise mission, and we didn't have one that could fit into the modern continuity. We had Mere Anarchy Book 1 set near the beginning of his tenure, but that was it for the novels, and there wasn't much in other sources either (IDW had a couple of "near the start" stories, and The Autobiography of James T. Kirk covered it). So that's basically only three versions of the "first mission" story, and only one from Pocket more than 30 years ago, in contrast to at least seven versions of the end of the 5-year mission (including my version from Ex Machina/Forgotten History).

Anyway, I don't think you can read much into Strangers' throwaway nod about McCoy/Piper. Maybe the editor asked Margaret to toss in a passing reference because he was trying to create more of a feel of continuity among the books, but it probably wasn't a major consideration behind the book's plotting.

I guess I should have said maybe the whole McCoy-Piper thing was just a nod to the comic, not that the overall stories could fit. I know writers sometimes will throw a nod to a comic. Maybe Wander Bonnano was just throwing a nod to the comic book story and E:TFA---and I was wondering if maybe even McIntyre was doing something similar with her few lines about Piper possibly coming out of retirement. But I wasn't thinking the overall stories could fit.

It will be interesting to read your book now though. You're right, it seems ever since E:TFA came out novels have avoided talking much about Kirk's first actual mission as captain of the Enterprise. I still have to read Mere Anarchy. The only other early Kirk story was My Brother's Keeper, which flirted around the edges of his taking command but also avoided talking directly about it. It's like novel writers wanted to avoid outright taking on E:TFA, even though elements are already contradicted by WNMHGB. I'm glad to hear your book will finally offer a modern day version of that story.

On that front, did you throw any nods or Easter eggs toward E:TFA in your novel? That you can share anyway

 

[Christopher]

On that front, did you throw any nods or Easter eggs toward E:TFA in your novel? That you can share anyway

Nope. I always preferred Mike Barr's version, so the nods go in that direction.

 

[valkyrie013]

Hmm, I forgot that a different doctor was on the enterprise before McCoy and after Boyce.. Hmm..

Was just in that 1 episode, for like all of 5 seconds.. so a complete blanc slate..
As for how long he was on? Memory Beta said he was a temp while McCoy was on leave.. but that was in some book/comic/ thingy.. so grain of salt..
In a possible Pike series? in the timeline, Cage was 4 years ago (end of disco 2) and he was contemplating retirement, so you have a choice of Boyce or Piper as Cmo in a pike series, up to the writers.. both are older, don't think an old cantakrous take would work since we had McCoy and Bob Picardos being that way, maybe just a wise old man, complaining about how tech keeps on going, maybe doing a few Dr Phlox things like the Bats and eel worms

 

[Damian]

Nope. I always preferred Mike Barr's version, so the nods go in that direction.

Good to know. I won't bother trying to look for any hidden eggs then when I get your novel.

Still it'll be interesting to compare the two stories. I will say you have the upper hand already. Re-reading Enterprise: TFA is reminding me why even way back in 1986 when I was still a new Trekkie that I was a bit disappointed with that novel. It's not just the lack of continuity with WNMHGB, which I've sort of just surrendered to halfway through. I'm having some difficulty maintaining interest in the story. Not terrible (like "The Price of the Phoenix" say). But I'm just sort of meh at this point.

I imagine your novel will much better reflect the pre-WNMHGB time period story wise.

 

[tomswift2002]

Shatner’s novel “Captain’s Peril” covers the first six month’s of Kirk’s Command of the Enterprise.

But with ETFA, I have to wonder if the author might’ve been misremembering facts, or was only remembering the series as it was aired. Yeah, there were some Beta and VHS tapes out there in 1984-85, (according to Memory Alpha, from 1980-1985 there were 11 episodes out on VHS & Beta And none were WNMHGB, the closest was Menagerie; Paramount didn’t start the complete series release until sometime in 1985) but for the most part the author’s had to rely on reruns on TV, their memory and the James Blish/Alan Dean Foster adaptations.

 

[Damian]

Shatner’s novel “Captain’s Peril” covers the first six month’s of Kirk’s Command of the Enterprise.

But with ETFA, I have to wonder if the author might’ve been misremembering facts, or was only remembering the series as it was aired. Yeah, there were some Beta and VHS tapes out there in 1984-85, (according to Memory Alpha, from 1980-1985 there were 11 episodes out on VHS & Beta And none were WNMHGB, the closest was Menagerie; Paramount didn’t start the complete series release until sometime in 1985) but for the most part the author’s had to rely on reruns on TV, their memory and the James Blish/Alan Dean Foster adaptations.

There were some elements of WMNHGB acknowledge. Gary Mitchell was noted and it was noted Kirk wanted him to be his first officer. Dr. Piper was mentioned but did not appear.

It's one of those things as I re-read it it's definite she was aware of WNMHGB but ignored some elements of it. I'm just sort of curious who's call it was to ignore those elements? Was it an author's decision, an editorial call, combination? It does make it hard to read it as a prequel though because of those discontinuities. I'm aware of the reasons they did it that way. But it's something even on my first read as a new fan when I first got the book in 1986 that I picked up on.

 

[Desert Kris]

When I read E:TFA it will be with the mindset that it is aspiring to be user friendly for casual fans. Also as the TOS 80's novel counterpart to the JJ Abrams movie (since those movies' alternative take got me started reading TOS books that have alternative depictions of the Trek universe), showing a story of how the familiar TOS crew gathered for their first adventure, the pilot adventure for that crew that we never saw. In the back of my mind is the idea that there is a "real" version of the story behind the novel, and McIntyre made deliberate changes for dramatic effect, the way historical fiction will compress real events or move them around for emphasis.

I assumed the upcoming novel, The Captain's Oath, would be more before Kirk takes command of Enterprise, but I'm excited to learn that it seems to be a new, modern counterpart of that elusive first adventure for TOS continuity.

 

[Christopher]

When I read E:TFA it will be with the mindset that it is aspiring to be user friendly for casual fans. Also as the TOS 80's novel counterpart to the JJ Abrams movie (since those movies' alternative take got me started reading TOS books that have alternative depictions of the Trek universe), showing a story of how the familiar TOS crew gathered for their first adventure, the pilot adventure for that crew that we never saw.

Exactly. To the wider, casual audience, characters like Mitchell and Kelso and Piper and Alden are nobodies; they want to see the big seven everyone knows. So that's who you focus on when you're doing an origin story as a big event, either as a 20th-anniversary novel that also debuts a line of "giant" novels, or as a huge-budget blockbuster movie reboot.

I assumed the upcoming novel, The Captain's Oath, would be more before Kirk takes command of Enterprise, but I'm excited to learn that it seems to be a new, modern counterpart of that elusive first adventure for TOS continuity.

Yes -- the first Enterprise mission is a frame story for the saga of Kirk's first starship command.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I assumed the upcoming novel, The Captain's Oath, would be more before Kirk takes command of Enterprise, but I'm excited to learn that it seems to be a new, modern counterpart of that elusive first adventure for TOS continuity.

And this time there will be NO scenes where the bridge is invaded by a swarm of poodles.

 

[Damian]

When I read E:TFA it will be with the mindset that it is aspiring to be user friendly for casual fans.

Yeah, in hindsight I get that. It was just that when it was announced I was excited to see the change of command and Kirk's first days as Captain. I was a new fan at the time but I had expected it to line up with WNMHGB. And I was such a new fan at the time I actually thought books were 'official' stories, what we now consider canon. So when it didn't jive with WNMHGB, which is what I thought was the 2nd episode (I wasn't yet aware they were aired out of order) I found it confusing.

I'm glad Christopher's upcoming book will give an alternate first mission for the Enterprise under Kirk that I imagine will be more in line with what we know now.

 

[Christopher]

To be fair, McIntyre did write her book in a way that implicitly would mesh with "Where No Man." Gary was injured and thus unavailable during the novel, but it was made clear that he'd be aboard once he was healed. McCoy was there to start out, but it was hinted that he'd take leave soon and Piper would fill in. That sort of thing. So it wasn't irreconcilable with the pilot; it just stretched things a bit so she could get the familiar characters on board from the start. (Although Chekov being there as a cadet trainee was a reach, as much as boy-genius Chekov was in Kelvin.)

 

[Desert Kris]

And this time there will be NO scenes where the bridge is invaded by a swarm of poodles.

Oh...ah? Something to look forward to in E:TFA...?

Yeah, in hindsight I get that. It was just that when it was announced I was excited to see the change of command and Kirk's first days as Captain. I was a new fan at the time but I had expected it to line up with WNMHGB. And I was such a new fan at the time I actually thought books were 'official' stories, what we now consider canon. So when it didn't jive with WNMHGB, which is what I thought was the 2nd episode (I wasn't yet aware they were aired out of order) I found it confusing.

As a new fan, that's a credit to your attention to detail! If I had successfully read E:TFA back then, I would have made the same assumption. And I did make that assumption about Star Wars novels I read through middle school, high school, and college, I never contemplated the possibility a future movie would contradict them.

As I read E:TFA in the spirit of being a first adventure for the familiar TOS crew, I will also look forward to how Strangers From the Sky presents the WNMHGB version of the crew, The episode gives a tantalizing glimpse of an alternative, and it's nice to have a few extra stories that feature the earlier characters.

I'm glad Christopher's upcoming book will give an alternate first mission for the Enterprise under Kirk that I imagine will be more in line with what we know now.

Yes, it will be fun to have different takes on the same/similar idea! I like that it's something that can be revisited periodically after enough time passes, to see what kind of direction it can go after we've learned new stuff about the ST universe.

 

[Christopher]

If I had successfully read E:TFA back then, I would have made the same assumption. And I did make that assumption about Star Wars novels I read through middle school, high school, and college, I never contemplated the possibility a future movie would contradict them.

I guess I didn't see it that way because I may have already read Mike Barr's totally different version of Kirk's first Enterprise mission in the comics, which predated the novel by nearly a year (although I didn't start collecting Trek comics until early '86, so I'm not sure which I read first). More generally, I was used to Trek novels not making any effort to be consistent with one another.

 

[Damian]

Oh...ah? Something to look forward to in E:TFA...?

Sigh. Yes. I just got past that part. There are some parts of the book that make you wonder what she was thinking.

To be fair, McIntyre did write her book in a way that implicitly would mesh with "Where No Man."

I guess I can see that. It seemed she was trying to straddle both sides. Having the familiar crew but incorporating elements of WNMHGB. And I feel sort of bad criticizing her since she recently passed away. I haven't gotten to Chekov showing up. And yeah, that's a stretch.

I guess I didn't see it that way because I may have already read Mike Barr's totally different version of Kirk's first Enterprise mission in the comics

I never read that, probably because comics aren't my thing (hell, I thought Superman was Marvel ). But hearing about it, esp. the whole Piper-McCoy thing with McCoy being there when Kirk took command, then Piper coming out of retirement while McCoy took a leave of absence makes me wonder if both McIntyre and Wander Bonnano were throwing a nod Barr's way.

But I sort of like the idea of Piper being CMO during the end of Pike's command and staying on during Kirk's first year until McCoy comes on board. I'm not sure how common that belief is, though it seems nowadays at the very least people feel McCoy didn't come on board til after Piper left for good.

 

[GNDN18]

There was some friction between Kirk and McCoy in first few episodes. I don’t think he necessarily picked McCoy to be his ship’s surgeon.

I like to think that McCoy was wrapping up his “few months” on Capella IV while the Enterprise probed out of the galaxy.

 

[tomswift2002]

There were some elements of WMNHGB acknowledge. Gary Mitchell was noted and it was noted Kirk wanted him to be his first officer. Dr. Piper was mentioned but did not appear.

It's one of those things as I re-read it it's definite she was aware of WNMHGB but ignored some elements of it. I'm just sort of curious who's call it was to ignore those elements? Was it an author's decision, an editorial call, combination? It does make it hard to read it as a prequel though because of those discontinuities. I'm aware of the reasons they did it that way. But it's something even on my first read as a new fan when I first got the book in 1986 that I picked up on.

I haven’t read the James Blish version of WNMHGB, but how different was it from the televised episode?But with ETFA it even has Chekhov on the ship, which doesn’t make a lot of sense when Chiekov didn’t seem to be on much before “Space Seed”.

 

[tomswift2002]

And this time there will be NO scenes where the bridge is invaded by a swarm of poodles.

Who let the dogs out? They are worst than tribbles on the bridge!

 

[Christopher]

But hearing about it, esp. the whole Piper-McCoy thing with McCoy being there when Kirk took command, then Piper coming out of retirement while McCoy took a leave of absence makes me wonder if both McIntyre and Wander Bonnano were throwing a nod Barr's way.

Most of the time, similarities between different works of fiction are not direct references, but convergent evolution -- different writers independently arriving at the same solution to the same problem. Given that McCoy is far more popular than Piper, anyone doing a pre-WNM story has an incentive to include McCoy, and that requires inventing a justification for why Piper is there later. The simplest solution is to say that McCoy was the CMO all along and Piper was just filling in for him, like Palmer did for Uhura a couple of times. So it's not at all unlikely that two writers trying to achieve the same thing would've arrived at the same result, even if they weren't aware of each others' work.

I haven’t read the James Blish version of WNMHGB, but how different was it from the televised episode?

That one was in Star Trek 8, by which point Blish was sticking far more closely to the final episodes. The differences are minimal, a few minor scene trims and tweaks of dialogue.

 

[Stevil2001]

the odd thing about the Blish version is that he doesn't present it as a "first" mission or anything, and in fact does the opposite: we're told that Gary Mitchell is "now senior helmsman since Sulu had become ship's physicist." Mitchell has clearly been aboard the Enterprise all along but unseen, since he's said to be a popular officer. Piper is a temporary replacement for McCoy, who is on "special study leave."

 

[Christopher]

the odd thing about the Blish version is that he doesn't present it as a "first" mission or anything, and in fact does the opposite: we're told that Gary Mitchell is "now senior helmsman since Sulu had become ship's physicist." Mitchell has clearly been aboard the Enterprise all along but unseen, since he's said to be a popular officer. Piper is a temporary replacement for McCoy, who is on "special study leave."

Well, it was in the eighth volume, so it's not that odd. Besides, back in the day when we watched TOS in endlessly cycling syndicated reruns that weren't necessarily shown in a consistent order, there wasn't any consistent perception of "Where No Man" as a "first" episode (and it was the third aired in original broadcast order); it was just this weird episode where the crew and sets and uniforms were inexplicably different before going back to normal in the next rerun. It's not surprising that Blish would try to make sense of it in that context.

Alan Dean Foster did much the same thing with his TAS books, adapting the episodes in no particular order but creating transitional scenes between them to make it seem they took place in the order he chose.