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When they do remakes...

JarodRussell

Vice Admiral
Admiral
When they do remakes/sequels/...

When they do remakes/sequels/... but then don't do them the way they used to... why are they doing that? Mostly every time a new team takes over, either because of the time that has passed or because someone died.

Some examples:

Music:

1. Live Free or Die Hard. Michael Kamen, the original composer of the first three moves, had died, so Marco Beltrami took his job. And all the cleverness was gone. Kamen always incorporated a classical music piece (Beethoven's 9th in the first, for example) and other stuff (like Singin' in the Rain or various Christmas songs) into the score for the Die Hard movies. And the scores had this typical leitmotif of frequently blasting horns (most prominently when Hans Gruber fell to his death).

Beltrami ignored all of that. He used ONE motif, the four note theme for John McClane, but that was it.

Same thing (again Beltrami) in Terminator 3. He TOTALLY ignored Brad Fiedel's score for the first two movies. Used his own (inferior, imo) theme instead.

2. The A-Team. Alan Silvestri is a fantastic composer, but his score for the A-Team is wrong (of course that's my opinion). The opening theme is only played in full glory in the end credits, and during the actual movie he uses his own themes. And his style is vastly different from the TV show's style (and I think the movie could have used that style).

3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

Cinematography:

1. Live Free or Die Hard. All three movies before it shared the same color palette of reds and blues, saturated with strong contrasts. Which is interesting because McClane is a cop and red and blue is an association to that. Yet the fourth movie, directed by Len Wiseman and DoP Simon Duggan (both involved in Underworld: Evolution) gave their movie a green-ish Matrix/Underworld style tint and made it dark, desaturated, less contrast. It totally runs against the style of what came before.

2. And example how you should do it: Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The original DoP died, but Spielberg and his DoP from War of the Worlds and Minority Report went great lengths to emulate that style. And in my opinion, they succeeded, giving Indy 4 a look and feel consistent with the other 3 movies.

Story:

1. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. ALIENS?! Seriously? Why, oh why. The first three had mysterious, religion related, yet still Earth bound myths and magic. Ghosts from the Ark, magical stones, eternal life by drinking from the Holy Grail. But in the 4th movie they had to go science fiction, with aliens, Area 51 and nuclear bombs. It totally didn't fit into it, imo. And they also reduced the amount of violence. The first three had a good solid amount of shooting and punching and gore and death. Almost non existant in the 4th one, and so some of the exitement was lost.

2. [ran out of time]


I could cite a lot more movies now, but I don't want to waste too much time one this, and you should have gotten my point by now.

My question is: why are they doing that? Is it the ego? Is the ego of creative people so strong that they simply can't step back and try to emulate someone else's work (for the sake of the art they are trying to make). I'm wondering about that especially with artists like Beltrami.

It's like doing a late follow up to the Mona Lisa (or any artwork, I don't mean to compare the quality of the movies/franchises I listed to the quality of the Mona Lisa), but the artist is actually an abstract expressionist and doesn't want to paint like DaVinci did (or he can't even do it). So the end product looks nothing like it, but he still calls it Mona Lisa 2. Why?

Why is it that people feel the need to do sequels but then also feel that urge to put their own stamp on it, "ruining" (in my opinion) that sequel because it doesn't fit into the rest of the series or franchise?
 
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Neither movie you listed is a remake. They're both continuations of previous movies. They've mostly got the same actors, etc.
 
Well with Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull I think they were trying to pay homage to the era the film was set, the 1950s. Aliens, A-Bombs, Commies and Rock and Roll.
 
^ What he said.

Re: Star Trek(2009)
The reason we didn't get the classic theme until the end credits is the same reason we didn't get a definitive theme for Batman until the end of Batman Begins. Both films are about the journey to find the characters as we know them. In both cases, the score is written to reflect the journey, only finding the classic themes once the characters have found their place.
 
If they did it the same then someone would be posting "What's the point of doing a remake if they're not going to bring anyting new to the table?".
 
Are people still moaning about the aliens? Seriously? So a box with a thousand souls in, that melts peoples faces of is fine, but aliens is just weird. I have my own complaints about the movie but that wasn't really one of them.
Also as Nerys said, they were deliberatly going for that feel to follow the old style mnovies along from the cowboy and Indian adventure movies up to the sci-fi movies.
IMO Live free was a worse movie for what it did to the franchice in the same way that I don't like Terminator 3.
 
..
Same thing (again Beltrami) in Terminator 3. He TOTALLY ignored Brad Fiedel's score for the first two movies. Used his own (inferior, imo) theme instead.

If I'm not mistaken, this was actually a rights issue. The rights to Terminator and its associated media has changed hands so many times, they couldn't use the music. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I might be.

2. And example how you should do it: Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The original DoP died, but Spielberg and his DoP from War of the Worlds and Minority Report went great lengths to emulate that style. And in my opinion, they succeeded, giving Indy 4 a look and feel consistent with the other 3 movies.

The original three Indy movies had bad CGI and terribly chroma-keyed and badly lit green screen studio shooting instead of locations?
 
3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.
 
If they did it the same then someone would be posting "What's the point of doing a remake if they're not going to bring anyting new to the table?".


Bingo.

A remake is not supposed to be a frame-by-frame photocopy of the original. Ideally, it's a new take on an old story.
 
..
Same thing (again Beltrami) in Terminator 3. He TOTALLY ignored Brad Fiedel's score for the first two movies. Used his own (inferior, imo) theme instead.

If I'm not mistaken, this was actually a rights issue. The rights to Terminator and its associated media has changed hands so many times, they couldn't use the music. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I might be.

Fiedel's theme was used in the end credits, though.
 
3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.

Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.
 
3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.

Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.

Yeah, also kinda true. The fanfare is iconic, no question, and can work well in a score, but it would be tough to integrate the theme in any sort of meaningful way.
 
3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.

Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.
They didnt exactly make it a center piece in TMP either.
 
^ What he said.

Re: Star Trek(2009)
The reason we didn't get the classic theme until the end credits is the same reason we didn't get a definitive theme for Batman until the end of Batman Begins. Both films are about the journey to find the characters as we know them. In both cases, the score is written to reflect the journey, only finding the classic themes once the characters have found their place.

Also a good example: "Casino Royale" - You don't hear the full Bond theme until the end credits, but there are a couple hints of it spread earlier in the score.
 
The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.

Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.

Yeah, also kinda true. The fanfare is iconic, no question, and can work well in a score, but it would be tough to integrate the theme in any sort of meaningful way.

Why? James Horner and Leonard Rosenman had no problems doing that in their scores.


..
Same thing (again Beltrami) in Terminator 3. He TOTALLY ignored Brad Fiedel's score for the first two movies. Used his own (inferior, imo) theme instead.

If I'm not mistaken, this was actually a rights issue. The rights to Terminator and its associated media has changed hands so many times, they couldn't use the music. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause I might be.

Fiedel's theme was used in the end credits, though.

Yes, only in the credits (same case as with the A-Team or Star Trek). Why? Didn't Beltrami like it? Why did he have to use his own theme throughout the movie?


If they did it the same then someone would be posting "What's the point of doing a remake if they're not going to bring anyting new to the table?".
Bingo.
A remake is not supposed to be a frame-by-frame photocopy of the original. Ideally, it's a new take on an old story.

Remakes I can understand, but only to a point (the Smurfs in New York? Why the hell? Or Starsky and Hutch turned into a Stiller/Wilson comedy?!).
But with sequels to successful movies, I won't ever understand the need.
 
Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.

Yeah, also kinda true. The fanfare is iconic, no question, and can work well in a score, but it would be tough to integrate the theme in any sort of meaningful way.

Why? James Horner and Leonard Rosenman had no problems doing that in their scores.

Yeah, and it kinda worked in the 80s, but—cool as it is—it kinda stood out even then. I think it would be even tougher to do well today.
 
Why? Didn't Beltrami like it? Why did he have to use his own theme throughout the movie?
As a huge T3 fan, I say... because that was arguably Sarah's theme. Sure, it played over certain scenes she wasn't in, but the first two movies were basically about her. It was also heavily associated with James Cameron, so they could well have figured that using it would be distracting. Besides, Cameron's movies were shot in a very blue-tinted, "tech noir" style, with lots of night scenes, whereas almost all of T3 took place in daylight, and had a much more colorful look. Different directors, different styles. Putting the Fiedel theme all over daytime scenes might well have not worked at all.

I personally like how T3's score moves away from Fiedel's electronic score to a more orchestral one. By focusing more on natural, organic instruments, the terrible alien-ness of nuclear devastation paradoxically becomes even more unnatural. It's like how John nearly crashes into the deer, but the deer doesn't run away immediately like an actual deer would. It's as if the very fabric of the natural world is already collapsing.

Why? James Horner and Leonard Rosenman had no problems doing that in their scores.
I think you're confusing the fanfare (introduced in TMP) with the TOS opening credits theme. ;)

@ the OP: As for KOTCS... take another look. The whole movie has a sort of soft focus glow, probably to soften the actors' age, that is very different from the comparative realism of the first three movies. It may "feel" like old times, but would definitely stand out if viewed side-to-side.

I was pissed, though, that X3 ditched the T1/T2-like "tech noir" blue look for a generic all-color palette. Sure, T3 did the same thing, but it also changed up almost the whole cast, was set in a new decade, and arguably a new (or at least modified) timeline. There was no excuse for not conserving Singer's bluish style for X3, but then there was no excuse for how X3 turned out at all. It wasn't even funny and fun like T3.
 
If they did it the same then someone would be posting "What's the point of doing a remake if they're not going to bring anyting new to the table?".


Bingo.

A remake is not supposed to be a frame-by-frame photocopy of the original. Ideally, it's a new take on an old story.

The only almost straight photocopy movie I can think of is Gus Van Sant's remake of PSYCHO and we all know how that turned out.:angryrazz:
 
If they did it the same then someone would be posting "What's the point of doing a remake if they're not going to bring anyting new to the table?".


Bingo.

A remake is not supposed to be a frame-by-frame photocopy of the original. Ideally, it's a new take on an old story.

The only almost straight photocopy movie I can think of is Gus Van Sant's remake of PSYCHO and we all know how that turned out.:angryrazz:

Indeed!
 
3. Star Trek. Again, the theme is only in the End Credits, and doesn't appear in the movie AT ALL.

The score reflects the journey of the characters. So while there are hints throughout (the fanfare occurs fairly often, though usually in the background), it's not until all the characters that we know and love are together before we actually hear the theme.

Let's be brutally honest: the Star Trek theme is pretty hokey and dated. It sounds like 60s TV. It was fun hearing it at the end, as a kind of celebration after it's all over and we've been convinced that "Star Trek is back!", but I would not have wanted it earlier in any very noticeable way.


I thought the version at the end of the movie was friggin awesome...in the same way that nuWho's theme has been awesome. Taking a piece of music that I didn't think could ever really be done in really cool way and....did it.

No, I hope they're playing the new/old Trek theme at the begining of the movie next time. The only thing that could make the end credits better in the next movie is the same theme with credits over images from the moive! :)
 
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