...do they ever have the mainstream audience in mind? You know? the audience that doesn't know (or care) that Phlox is a Denobulan and has multiple wives or that Jem Hadar fought for the Founders who were changlings and yet, they are the pople that really determine the success or failure of any franchise, let alone Star Trek? After reading most of these posts for over seven years, I'm convinced that that most still don't get it. As a Star Wars fan, I know that its success isn't due to the fact that I know that the Millennium Falcon is a remodified YT-1300 light freighter or that Prince Xizor is the head of the Black Sun criminal organization. It's success is due to the fact that other people I know are into it, but not as emotionaly invested in it as I am. Whenever I think of an idea for FOT, I usually have the whole audience in mind. Not just us freaks and geeks. Perhaps if other people thought the same way, I think that there would be some more interesting ideas that go beyond the usual "30th century timeship" and "Federation anthology" proposals.
When people propose ideas in the FOT forum...
- Thread starter blockaderunner
- Start date
STAR TREK NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD.
OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PLOT POTENTIAL MOVING THE TIMEFRAME FORWARD AUTOMATICALLY CREATES.
OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PLOT POTENTIAL MOVING THE TIMEFRAME FORWARD AUTOMATICALLY CREATES.
For the ideas I've been working with in my fan fiction (26th century, "6th series" sort of stuff), I definitely keep a general audience in mind. But I also fully believe that you can do that without pissing all over your dedicated core with inconsistencies and such.
The model should be old Bugs Bunny cartoons. They worked on two levels - the level for kids that involved neat colorful characters doing crazy things that didn't really require a whole lot of thought to enjoy, and the level for adults that involved jokes that were a little deeper, and could be taken or left without affecting the overall enjoyment. Which isn't to say that the average viewer is a child, but it is true that a lot of people consider thinking to be work, and they don't want to have to work for their entertainment.
The model should be old Bugs Bunny cartoons. They worked on two levels - the level for kids that involved neat colorful characters doing crazy things that didn't really require a whole lot of thought to enjoy, and the level for adults that involved jokes that were a little deeper, and could be taken or left without affecting the overall enjoyment. Which isn't to say that the average viewer is a child, but it is true that a lot of people consider thinking to be work, and they don't want to have to work for their entertainment.
J.J. Abrams and his crew are the only ones who get it, really. The adventures of Kirk and Spock aboard the starship Enterprise. Check, please.
And yet moving the timeframe forward (in here at least) seems to only generate two scenarios:
- A starship with loads of magic technology and a crew that are even more annoyingly squeaky-clean perfect than the TNG crew.
- "The Fall of the Federation," in which the Federation either rots from within or is toppled by an outside force, and the crew start to resemble something like a cross between the Rebels in Star Wars and the crew of Serenity.
(Since you were typing in "shouty caps," it's also entirely possible you were being sarcastic and I just missed it.
)I also think that blockaderunner hits the nail on the head with his OP. Any show that wants to be truly successful needs to aim for a broad audience. The idea that Star Trek should revel in its current status as marginalized niche programming may be fine for some of the hardcore fans who'd watch it anyway, but Viacom/CBS wants a return on their investment, and they'll get it from doing a movie or series with broad appeal, not with The Adventures of Captain Sulu or a Firefly ripoff.
I went with scenario 3: The 26th century Federation (including the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, and almost all other major races - but not the Kazon or, strangely enough, the Andorians, as they have seceded) controls the Milky Way Galaxy. Technology has continued to advance. On the surface, one would expect that things are "squeeky-clean perfect", as you put it. On just the surface, they are. But the Federation is increasingly burdened by a useless welfare population that lack the will to even take advantage of the freely available education and entertainment, and instead cause all sorts of ignorant, destructive trouble. They face increasing numbers of separatist and terrorist groups, both from rogue factions of the civilizations that have joined the Federation and Federation citizens that are no longer convinced that Starfleet can protect them from two new external threats: a long-lost colony, far flung through time and space, that has lost part of its own history and has returned home to take vengeance on those who "abandoned" it, and a race that is no longer purely tied to a physical presence, and that feeds off the negative emotions of other beings.
And the Federation is trying to conquer these obstacles while trying not to become a fascist state to do so, and also while embarking on the greatest task ever yet undertaken by the humanities: The Farship Project. Vast intergalactic colony ships, designed to bring the Federation to other galaxies. To explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life, and new civilizations. To boldly go.....
Mainstream audience idea: Wait till Trek XI is a big hit. Between XI and XII, launch a new TV series with some of the movie actors as guest stars for the premiere and every once in a while afterwards, but focusing on new characters - Starfleet, TOS era. Format: mix of serialization and stand-alones, a la DS9, with some ENT style trilogies mixed in.
That's by far the idea most likely to work. If that series is a success, then more exotic ideas can be tried, such as the Fall of the Federation concept or another crack at Birth of the Federation, but not with Archer et al.
That's the kind of inside-baseball detail that mainstream audiences will not get. They don't know what the Federation is, much less that it is apparently made up entirely of welfare queens. Which frankly I think is a major misstep and not at all Star-Trek-like. But even if it were, it's not something mainstream audiences can care about until they learn what the Federation should be, so they can contrast that with what it isn't (in your scenario).
Your whole idea makes far too many assumptions about the audience already knowing a lot about the situation. A mainstream audience won't be emotionally invested in the Federation living up to ideals, or that Starfleet "needs" to explore. They must be introduced to these concepts and convinced that they matter. After that, we can start in on the terrorists and far-flung colonies. Lay the foundation before you start building the house.
That's by far the idea most likely to work. If that series is a success, then more exotic ideas can be tried, such as the Fall of the Federation concept or another crack at Birth of the Federation, but not with Archer et al.
That's the kind of inside-baseball detail that mainstream audiences will not get. They don't know what the Federation is, much less that it is apparently made up entirely of welfare queens. Which frankly I think is a major misstep and not at all Star-Trek-like. But even if it were, it's not something mainstream audiences can care about until they learn what the Federation should be, so they can contrast that with what it isn't (in your scenario).
Your whole idea makes far too many assumptions about the audience already knowing a lot about the situation. A mainstream audience won't be emotionally invested in the Federation living up to ideals, or that Starfleet "needs" to explore. They must be introduced to these concepts and convinced that they matter. After that, we can start in on the terrorists and far-flung colonies. Lay the foundation before you start building the house.
Allow me to clarify that none of that is what the show would be (or my fan-fic is) about. Almost all of that is just backdrop, an environment that can provide a setting for episodes that, much like episodes from TOS, focus on a single ship and her crew, dealing with issues that matter to us now - terrorism, the relative "worth" of people who don't actively contribute to society, the rights and limits of government to protect us from ourselves, and how much they can or can't take from us to protect us from others, and so on. The things that are going on in our own lives are exactly the sort of things a mainstream audience can grasp.
I get what you're saying Temis, I really do. But any concept of Trek is going to have a few Trekkie things in it. I don't think that means that you have to 'splain everything. The "mainstream audience" isn't a bunch of retardd 2-year-olds. Just because I mention "Federation" or some political situation doesn't mean that I need to stop everything and explain the concept.
I've been sort of off-and on planying with a concept for a space travel story. It's basicly Lewis & Clark in space. They're setting off into the unknown (in my story, it's the center of the galaxy), with no way to communicate with Earth or get help for 10 years (5 years each way). I don't think the audience is too stupid to "get" hyperdrive, so other than setting a few limits based on the hyperdrive I have in mind, I don't bother with explaining what it is. It's a fecking engine, it goes, and unless you're the engineer, that's all there is to know. Same with the political situation. If earth is run by a parliment, and a major issue is lack of land for people to live on, it can be movitation without bogging down into the details of whatever faction is doing some strange things, or threatens to blow up the ship before launch. You just have to be aware that it's a possibility, not go into a long history lesson
That's probably the one thing that I like best about BSG -- the WRITERS understand the technology, but they don't always stop and tell the audience every little detail. They never showed us how the engines worked, or how the cylons can read a networked computer. You just know that the ship can "jump" and the cylons can read data off networks. The rest is canon fodder, fun for fanboys, but not important.
I've been sort of off-and on planying with a concept for a space travel story. It's basicly Lewis & Clark in space. They're setting off into the unknown (in my story, it's the center of the galaxy), with no way to communicate with Earth or get help for 10 years (5 years each way). I don't think the audience is too stupid to "get" hyperdrive, so other than setting a few limits based on the hyperdrive I have in mind, I don't bother with explaining what it is. It's a fecking engine, it goes, and unless you're the engineer, that's all there is to know. Same with the political situation. If earth is run by a parliment, and a major issue is lack of land for people to live on, it can be movitation without bogging down into the details of whatever faction is doing some strange things, or threatens to blow up the ship before launch. You just have to be aware that it's a possibility, not go into a long history lesson
That's probably the one thing that I like best about BSG -- the WRITERS understand the technology, but they don't always stop and tell the audience every little detail. They never showed us how the engines worked, or how the cylons can read a networked computer. You just know that the ship can "jump" and the cylons can read data off networks. The rest is canon fodder, fun for fanboys, but not important.
Yeah! It isn't like you'd go rambling off about the effects of trade tariffs on banking clans being the reason one group is performing a blockade on another. Nothing successful would ever do that!
EXACTLY.
This, in my opinion is what needs to change most about Star Trek. Whenever I watch Star Trek with people who really aren't big fans, they always get put off by technobabble dialogue, and all that subspace shit. Simple stuff like "We need Dilithium Crystals. Dilithium crystals make us go." is good. Stuff like "The deuterium cross-fade interfeed matrix has polarized under stress from the main warp dicodulator" is not good. It makes no sense and bores everyone.
I think it would be interesting to do a post Nemesis series, based maybe 10 years in the future.
The concept I ramble around in my head, is a new collaboration between the major powers (basically Federation, Klingon, Romulan). Combined they make the biggest and basically most badass starship constructed in the Alpha/Beta quandrants. The ship is designed to protect all the people of the quandrants against large threats (such as the Borg, Dominion... in fact these incidents would just the justification for such a ship).
Also, the ship would be governed by a seperate collaborative entity... so it's not a federation ship, nor does it involve the destruction of the federation (anymore so than what's already happened after dominion wars).
I think there would be great possibilities from having a crew that has main characters consisting of: 1 Human, 1 Romulan, 1 Klingon, 1 (other race- my choice Trill), 1 other race (my choice Vulcan).
And the ship being large enough to have 1000s of crew members instead of in the 500 range.
I dunno, those are the basics.. i think it could lead to good story ideas.
When I decided to write something Trekish (for my own amusement, more than anything else) I really didn't want to take that option number two for just that reason. It didn't seem Trek enough. Not to mention it was becoming a very common idea and it all sounded dreadful.
But on the same level - anything can be Trek as long as the right idea and logic is behind it. Some seem stuck on the idea of the Federation becoming the US Calvary fighting against the Indians. Not many seem to think beyond the Dominion war or it's negative effects. It's all doom and gloom without the hope or optimism.
Then of course the ultimate question if someones thinking of a TV show or any kind of writing - what makes the story personal? Thats going to hook in an audience more than SF jargon will.
I think what happens when people post ideas for the future of trek that number one because they are a big enough of a fan to post such an idea it means that they do tend to have alot of the background info in their heads. But that does not necessarilly mean it isn't taking into account the general public's knowledge of Trek.
What probably clouds ideas posted is that they are usually one person's idea. Which means they reflect an interest or a plot device that intrigues the poster. i think that sometimes leads to what I've read some call here 'fanwankish' story/series ideas.
More collaborative ideas might break away from the done and rote. But then that's probably part of the reason people post their idea - in order to get feedback and input that steers them productively through critique or applause to flesh out their ideas.
But yes concur with many others above that the technobabble stuff is too off putting plus surely gives the writers a headache trying to come up with it.
Trying to capture the spirit of trek can be elusive but jamestyler has it when he says there probably has to some aspect of optimism. Doesn't mean happy clappy hippies or generic PC blandness. Just some aspect of a greater good or cause - not jingoistic or patriotic. DS9 was darker than other treks but managed to maintain this.
General audience will relate to that spirit hence why they tend to remember or know the TOS versions so much because it stuck in their head and probably why JJ and co opted to reboot/rebrand that version.
What probably clouds ideas posted is that they are usually one person's idea. Which means they reflect an interest or a plot device that intrigues the poster. i think that sometimes leads to what I've read some call here 'fanwankish' story/series ideas.
More collaborative ideas might break away from the done and rote. But then that's probably part of the reason people post their idea - in order to get feedback and input that steers them productively through critique or applause to flesh out their ideas.
But yes concur with many others above that the technobabble stuff is too off putting plus surely gives the writers a headache trying to come up with it.
Trying to capture the spirit of trek can be elusive but jamestyler has it when he says there probably has to some aspect of optimism. Doesn't mean happy clappy hippies or generic PC blandness. Just some aspect of a greater good or cause - not jingoistic or patriotic. DS9 was darker than other treks but managed to maintain this.
General audience will relate to that spirit hence why they tend to remember or know the TOS versions so much because it stuck in their head and probably why JJ and co opted to reboot/rebrand that version.
To me, it's best to remember the KISS method and keep a premise as basic as possible. The details can be filled in later, but I think it's also important not to lose the premise with too many details or the often coined "continuity-porn".
And after reading several posts like this one here, I wonder why so many people feel so compelled to lecture those brave enough to post ideas here about [angelic music]WHAT STAR TREK IS REALLY ABOUT[/angelic music].
Seriously...the ideas aren't for a mainstream audience? That's what you're worried about? I say, so freakin' what? Given that it will be a snowball's chance in hell that the owners and distributors of Trek will visit the BBS, run right to FoT, point to an idea and say, "That's it! That's our next Trek!" under any circumstance, why should we give a damn whether or not our ideas will appeal to the mainstream? In practical, realistic terms, this forum is just as much Trekkies writing for Trekkies as the Fanfiction or Fanfilm forums, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't be frequented by non-trekkies anyway. This is not a broad commercial venture.
To all of you who might post an idea here someday: just post it. Don't worry if it doesn't appeal to the mainstream (contrary to popular fiction, canon Trek has never appealed to the mainstream, and never will, especially under the current management), don't worry if it has magic technology (canon Trek had things like self-replicating mines, so you're in good company), don't worry that people that think they know more about what's good for Trek than you do complain. Those of us without EPS conduits rammed up our rear ends will judge them fairly.
Personally, I think a Trek show should have a premise that's about five words long: "They go exploring. Stuff happens." The rest is boring detail work. That's why I find this forum so often very boring... people are trying to make their premises unique, but they're mostly repeating themselves, or filling in the blanks of "stuff happens" with enormous detail on the setting (the least important part of Trek), or going so far to make their idea unique that it's not Star Trek anymore.
I would like to see this forum given over more to things beyond premise: character sketches, episode "pitches," notes on how canon will be handled, bright ideas for production ("let's have mainstream scifi authors write episodes!", "how about twelve-episode seasons?", etc). Otherwise, we're just going to be reading and writing rehashes of the same handful of core ideas forever.
I would like to see this forum given over more to things beyond premise: character sketches, episode "pitches," notes on how canon will be handled, bright ideas for production ("let's have mainstream scifi authors write episodes!", "how about twelve-episode seasons?", etc). Otherwise, we're just going to be reading and writing rehashes of the same handful of core ideas forever.
Sounds like it could make a decent sci fi series, but it doesn't sound like Star Trek to me. The core of Star Trek is an optimistic message about liberal democracy surviving into the future and expanding into space. Welfare Queens in Space really has nothing to do with it. Your idea has more of a Firefly feel.
I also wouldn't be too optimistic about the audience caring much about Welfare Queens in Space, either...
I don't think the mass audience is dumb. But I do think that they have a lot of stuff to watch and no particular motive to care about Star Trek. Getting them hooked via the movie and then giving them a TV show as a "spinoff" of the movie is the best way of cutting through the clutter that distracts people from giving anything more than five seconds of their attention before they move onto the next thing. And the movie will have plenty of Trekkie things, no need to worry about that.
Why all the comments about technology? I never said anything about explaining technology to the audience. I don't think it's at all necessary. What you need for a good Star Trek story is to tap into the core theme of Star Trek, which is what I think the movie is going to do. But the Federation per se isn't part of the core theme of Star Trek. It's what's beyond the Federation that matters. The places to explore, the threats beyond.
It's a legitimate topic if you're concerned with the future financial success of Star Trek and therefore our odds of getting more of it in movies or TV shows. If the movie fails to appeal to the mainstream audience, it's dead and there will be nothing but novels, fanfic and fanvids from now on. That's not enough for me.
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