When Good Characters Go Bad

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

That was totally unethical of Bashir, and the writers play with it by having Miles try to argue with him about it, with Julian convinced he knows what he's doing. It was perhaps the most damaging thing ever done to the character, and may be a reason DS9 is my least favorite of the series.

Yes, it was, but there is something boyish and innocent about Bashir that makes it somehow acceptable. He's totally without malice.

Except he's a genetically altered human to make him a supergenius (another writers' betrayal of the character). When even average dolts like ourselves know he's violating medical ethics, why can't he see it?

She was his pet project and then she was a woman and he was already in love with his pet project as geniuses often are and it got messy. But to give DS9 credit he was told this was messy and inappropriate by his best friend.

Though it is a smear on his character I think it's a realistic one.

It would have been perhaps more believable in earlier seasons, but once that genetic alteration business came into play, he can't be forgiven for it.

See none of that has to do with his terrible choices. You can be a massive genius and be socially and relationship-ly stunted. You can be a massive genius and be a predator. He gets sucked in by the Jack Pack and his neediness to be around people with that hyper thinking is apparent. I think it ties in very well with the foible ridden Bashir we see before his genetic tinkering is revealed. It must be hard to be so very very smart and so deeply insecure in social areas. His "frontier medicine" comment made me think he's lived the life of an ultra private school boy.

 

[Goji]

Have we all agreed to forget that one time Kes decided to stop being one with the universe, go back to living in the body of an old woman, and murder all of her former friends on Voyager (for the hell of it, I guess) by delivering them to the Vidiians for a bunch of unnecessary surgery? If not, that one sticks out a bit.

Granted, I was on her side for that one. Chakotay, Harry Kim and Neelix could have used a bit of unnecessary surgery, it might have made them more interesting.

 

[T'Girl]

Captain Sisko ordering a biological weapon fired on the planet the Maquis colony is on.

It was hardly a colony.

Sisko wasn't permitting an entire race of people to die of a disease, Sisko knew that the marquis had the ships to evacuate the planet, and that the effects of the weapon he used would end in a few decades.

And he was able to capture a major marquis leader. Sisko did good.

In some ways I'm not bothered the Dr. Flox's decision because the race that was in danger of dying out was heavily exploiting the other race.

Where did you see exploitation?

 

[suarezguy]

I thought Data's actions in "The Quality of Life" were very over-the-top and made him unlikable, having extreme views off of little information and discarding all other considerations.

 

[Mojochi]

Frankly, I'm probably in the minority here, but I lost a LOT of respect for Riker in Chain of Command. After objecting to Starfleet Command's orders, & being flat out denied command by Nechayev, he seemingly went on a downward spiral of disgruntlement, wherein he disregarded an order, because he considered it wrong & disagreed with it. He showed overt public disapproval of his superior, sometimes even in his presence. He down talked the captain to a subordinate, and he finally allowed his behavior to get him relieved from his post

Now, that last one might be forgivable, because he was personally affected by the danger posed to Picard, (which Jellico points out) but if he is truly concerned for Picard's safety, & feels the captain isn't acting to safeguard it enough, then why, when Jellico finally approaches him about returning to duty to fly the shuttle, is Riker just sitting on his can in his room, pouting and waiting for a potential chance to gloat

Picard's safety is at stake, and YOU don't think enough is being done! That means YOU have to DO something. Recruit a couple people, steal a shuttle and save the guy. That's what a man of convictions does, like Kirk does for Spock in ST:3.

But that's not what he does because he knows it would be impetuous & imprudent. Well, if he cooled off, & stopped to think about it, what he was demanding Jellico do would've been equally so. He asks for a rescue mission, & gets turned down on the grounds that it's foolhardy, and then gives up ... Does nothing, because he knows it's true

That's the very moment I stopped thinking Riker was like Kirk

 

[Metryq]

By saving Edith Keeler from being run over by a truck, McCoy erased a whole timeline.

That would be a paradox. I suspect McCoy's actions catapulted him up an alternate history, and Kirk and the landing party (but not the Enterprise) followed along, for whatever reason. (Who knows how the Guardian works?)

It's not a long thread. The basic idea is that the Guardian will return Kirk, Spock, and McCoy only if the future has been restored, and the condition for restoring the future is that Edith must die in the way reported in the newspaper scanned by Spock's tricorder before Kirk and Spock go back in time. There's no alternative way to restore history. There has to be a body that people of the 1930s will recognize as Edith's from a traffic accident, and there have to be witnesses to that accident, so that the newspaper story can get written to match what was scanned by Spock's tricorder. That means that there's no alternative.

In other words, to avoid another paradox. Spock was recording our universe when McCoy stepped through. Averting Edith's death, along with the peace movement, would send them up yet a third history (or invoke a paradox since it would interfere with Kirk's and Spock's actions based on tricorder recordings). In order for the Guardian to bring them back to their "starting point," Kirk had to choose the fork in the historical road that led to—drum roll—their history. But somewhere in time Edith is still alive.

The death of the bum must have been inconsequential—or Kirk, Spock and McCoy did arrive at a third (or fourth) history, but so close to their own that they could not tell. (Or the Guardian could splice them into the new history and consider it inconsequential, since a different Kirk, Spock and McCoy arrived back at the "prime" timeline where a bum didn't die.)

 

[Nightdiamond]

Sisko wasn't permitting an entire race of people to die of a disease, Sisko knew that the marquis had the ships to evacuate the planet, and that the effects of the weapon he used would end in a few decades.

And he was able to capture a major marquis leader. Sisko did good.

Agreed--not much of an argument on this one-- Sisko's "villain" turn was an interesting twist for a Starfleet captain, and it wasn't a character flaw-he was pretending to be a villain to capture Eddington. His character was never bloodthirsty.

In some ways I'm not bothered the Dr. Flox's decision because the race that was in danger of dying out was heavily exploiting the other race.

Where did you see exploitation?

The Valakians felt the Menk were less evolved, but were "hard workers", yet they wouldn't let the Menk live where the land is fertile. They were restricted to live in compounds where the land was not fertile.

This implies the Valakians control all the land, keep the best for themselves and use the Menk as laborers.



Captain Janeway--the Tuvix situation --I think she was acting on her conscience, but some have thought she committed murder.

Picard--for refusing to infect the Borg with a deadly virus when he had a chance? The Borg ended up killing many more people later.

Starfleet--for thinking Data was property and for almost trying to force him to undergo a life threatening experiment against his wishes--no way out of that moral/legal debacle-they look bad.

Kieko--for refusing to compromise with teaching to her class and mentioning the Prophets, even as a side mention--

 

[Drone]

Have we all agreed to forget that one time Kes decided to stop being one with the universe, go back to living in the body of an old woman, and murder all of her former friends on Voyager (for the hell of it, I guess) by delivering them to the Vidiians for a bunch of unnecessary surgery? If not, that one sticks out a bit.

Granted, I was on her side for that one. Chakotay, Harry Kim and Neelix could have used a bit of unnecessary surgery, it might have made them more interesting.

While it's not quite elevated to the level of Threshold, I believe there are a number of folks that maintain that it never really happened and not to be considered as canon. Needless to say, they are mostly Kes partisans!!

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Tuvix was not even nearly the worst decision Janeway made. I am on the 'It was murder' side, but in that case at least it was debatable.

Janeway saved the Borg from extinction to get her own ship home. And she erased entire timelines just because they didn't work out well for herself and her friends.

 

[Melakon]

Kieko--for refusing to compromise with teaching to her class and mentioning the Prophets, even as a side mention--

I disagree with you here. The subplot was obviously a nod to the ongoing controversy of God in the classroom, including prayer in schools and teaching Creationism alongside evolution. I think Keiko was right to stand her ground on her own moral principles. If I'm remembering the episode correctly, it was her own private school, and not governed by a Bajoran Board of Education. If the classroom was governed by a B.B.o.E., then the board would have been equally right to fire her. But it seemed to me like Winn was trying to force her will on something not within her jurisdiction. I've not seen it in 20 years though.

 

[The Overlord]

In some ways I'm not bothered the Dr. Flox's decision because the race that was in danger of dying out was heavily exploiting the other race.

At one point Americans slaughtered the Natives and enslaved Africans, so do all Americans deserve to die for those crimes?

At one point, Germans were committing genocide across Europe, so do all Germans deserve die for those crimes?

How many human civilizations in general have avoided having blood on their hands at some point?

Saying that the Valakians mistreatment of the Menk in any justifies their deaths due to their mistreatment of the Menk, is the ultimate two wrongs make a right style logic. Who know, within a few generations, the Menk could have become equals with the Valakians. Why should future generations be condemned for their father's sins?

Instead Archer and Phlox seem to think evolution has decided that the Menk were superior and the Valakians deserved to die. That really comes off as a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution and does seem like Nazi pseudo science.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

By saving Edith Keeler from being run over by a truck, McCoy erased a whole timeline.

That would be a paradox. I suspect McCoy's actions catapulted him up an alternate history, and Kirk and the landing party (but not the Enterprise) followed along, for whatever reason. (Who knows how the Guardian works?)

It's not a long thread. The basic idea is that the Guardian will return Kirk, Spock, and McCoy only if the future has been restored, and the condition for restoring the future is that Edith must die in the way reported in the newspaper scanned by Spock's tricorder before Kirk and Spock go back in time. There's no alternative way to restore history. There has to be a body that people of the 1930s will recognize as Edith's from a traffic accident, and there have to be witnesses to that accident, so that the newspaper story can get written to match what was scanned by Spock's tricorder. That means that there's no alternative.

In other words, to avoid another paradox. Spock was recording our universe when McCoy stepped through. Averting Edith's death, along with the peace movement, would send them up yet a third history (or invoke a paradox since it would interfere with Kirk's and Spock's actions based on tricorder recordings). In order for the Guardian to bring them back to their "starting point," Kirk had to choose the fork in the historical road that led to—drum roll—their history. But somewhere in time Edith is still alive.

The death of the bum must have been inconsequential—or Kirk, Spock and McCoy did arrive at a third (or fourth) history, but so close to their own that they could not tell. (Or the Guardian could splice them into the new history and consider it inconsequential, since a different Kirk, Spock and McCoy arrived back at the "prime" timeline where a bum didn't die.)

If it's about 'restoring the timeline', though, it's an impossible goal. You can get something that's somehow 'close enough', but McCoy saved Edith Keeler and then had a whole relationship with her across a significant span of time during which she was supposed to be already dead. Everything she did in that time altered the timeline somehow. Not to mention everything McCoy did. Even the simple fact that her death came as the result of a different traffic accident than it was supposed to be could easily cause far reaching changes (for instance, the second driver is so terribly affected by having run her over that he quits his job and takes up a cause of his own, causing major timeline changes).

Unless, of course, you take the 'Bell Riots' tack and say that the time travel escapade was always a part of history, which implies that either a) they literally had no choice in what they were doing or b) any choice they made would have been acceptable.

 

[T'Girl]

I think Keiko was right to stand her ground on her own moral principles.

Keiko was obviously going out of her way to be culturally offensive to the Bajorian people. All Kia Winn was really asking was for Keiko to use a small number of indigenous Bajorian terms in her lesson plan.

With two exceptions, all the children in the class room were Bajorian.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Keiko was being a very starfleet kind of dick.

 

[suarezguy]

Frankly, I'm probably in the minority here, but I lost a LOT of respect for Riker in Chain of Command.

Picard--for refusing to infect the Borg with a deadly virus when he had a chance?

Agreed that both made the characters worse.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

I was creeped out by Bashir hitting on his recently catatonic and mentally, socially and emotionally challenged patient. Ick.

I don't remember this at all. What episode?

 

[dub]

I was creeped out by Bashir hitting on his recently catatonic and mentally, socially and emotionally challenged patient. Ick.

I don't remember this at all. What episode?

"Chrysalis"

 

[BigJake]

A couple of picks for me:

- "A Night in Sickbay" is the obvious pick from ENT, the episode that made Archer look so appallingly ludicrous that a big chunk of the viewing public left and never returned.

(For my money it beats "Dear Doctor," whose argument-from-destiny proto-Prime Directive is not really any worse than previous arguments-from-destiny going right back to Edith Keeler. What's mostly annoying about it is that Evolutionary Biology Does Not Work That Way, but squinting past that you can see they were going for a moral dilemma about whether to doom the Menk to permanent oppression in order to "save" their oppressors -- a complicated sort of dilemma to which there's no obvious right answer.)

- I've said this before, but, Kirk stealing and sabotaging Starfleet ships in TSFS. Sorry, there's nothing heroic about hijacking capital ships from your own Navy for personal business. What happens if the Excelsior was needed for a rescue mission, or to protect a Federation planet, or to haul a desperately-needed cargo of medicine someplace? Just screw those people? Of course we're meant to see the whole thing as a zany adventure and getting Spock back is meant to justify all of it, but still, I wish they'd found a different way to deal with this. It was taking Kirk's "maverick" tendencies a bridge, as it were, too far.

(Corollary: I gained respect for Riker in "Chain of Command." No, he doesn't steal a shuttle and race to Picard's rescue -- because however bad he feels or how much he disagrees with Jellico he knows that would be fundamentally irresponsible and could create more problems than it solves. Despite his fight with Jellico, his sense of duty and professionalism stays intact.)

 

[T'Girl]

I've said this before, but, Kirk stealing and sabotaging Starfleet ships in TSFS.

Kirk at one point (if I recall correctly) spoke of hiring a ship as McCoy attempted to do. It goes without saying that he could pilot one.
Getting away from Earth without his destination being known would be easy for someone of Kirk's abilities.

There no way he would have known about the BOP.

So why did he steal the damaged Enterprise anyway?

 

[Melakon]

Kirk probably had enough of the equivalent of money he could have bought his own small crew private yacht.