When did Trek fandom start changing?

[Trekkin]

TOS was, for many years, the big deal in television SF. And while I would say fandom in general was always evolving as people were exposed to more SF and reflected back on TOS and Star Trek in general. That's still going on.

Looking back I think fandom stated to really change (or perhaps fracture is a better word) when TNG came along. TNG attracted not only some of TOS' fans, but also fans who were never into TOS as well as some who weren't into any SF at all except TNG. And each successive series and then the reboot films signaled another fracturing.

When it was just TOS (along with TAS and the first six films) as well as tie-in merchandise it was pretty well understood what it meant to be a Trek fan. But with each new series and then reboot it got ever more subdivided.

Add into that mix people's exposure to other SF and fans projecting some of that back onto Trek (or whichever version they prefer).

honestly, the 'Trek/Not Trek' type of divergence started with TAS - and then again, when TMP came out, there was a big "It really doesn't feel like Trek, the characters are 'off' and the Enterprise is too different, and the Bridge has TWO turbolifts'...etc.

To try and claim 'divergence' started with TNG (I did start a BIG divergence to be fair that I saw); is whitewashing what were pretty large divisions previously that happened with both TAS and the TOS feature film run.

ST II:TWoK did unify a lot of rfandom as many who only cared for TV TOS did see that TWoK did get the characters back more to their TV attitudes and portrayals.

Which is interesting because TWOK also created a riff between Meyer coming in as an outsider and establishing his own point of view on Trek that even GR disagreed with.

I was thinking about this a little bit more, and I think one aspect of fandom is a reflection of society. Fandom has shifted a little bit in terms of the accessibility of episodes, movies and the like being faster and able to instantly share your opinion. That has resulted in less appreciation of the production time needed to craft art (TV, music, movies, etc) and a greater inclination to want instant gratification.

It creates an odd reaction in society, that's for sure.

Didn't Paramount get death threats over leaked details from TWOK? Or am I mixing that up with what some of our loonier brethren did to poor Malcolm Mcdowell?

Actually there's a case where our little fandom has changed. Theres much less of the genuinely scary crap being directed towards the people making the show. We're faster to whine, but also faster to try and head off the stuff that crosses some serious lines.

 

[fireproof78]

honestly, the 'Trek/Not Trek' type of divergence started with TAS - and then again, when TMP came out, there was a big "It really doesn't feel like Trek, the characters are 'off' and the Enterprise is too different, and the Bridge has TWO turbolifts'...etc.

To try and claim 'divergence' started with TNG (I did start a BIG divergence to be fair that I saw); is whitewashing what were pretty large divisions previously that happened with both TAS and the TOS feature film run.

ST II:TWoK did unify a lot of rfandom as many who only cared for TV TOS did see that TWoK did get the characters back more to their TV attitudes and portrayals.

Which is interesting because TWOK also created a riff between Meyer coming in as an outsider and establishing his own point of view on Trek that even GR disagreed with.

I was thinking about this a little bit more, and I think one aspect of fandom is a reflection of society. Fandom has shifted a little bit in terms of the accessibility of episodes, movies and the like being faster and able to instantly share your opinion. That has resulted in less appreciation of the production time needed to craft art (TV, music, movies, etc) and a greater inclination to want instant gratification.

It creates an odd reaction in society, that's for sure.

Didn't Paramount get death threats over leaked details from TWOK? Or am I mixing that up with what some of our loonier brethren did to poor Malcolm Mcdowell?

Actually there's a case where our little fandom has changed. Theres much less of the genuinely scary crap being directed towards the people making the show. We're faster to whine, but also faster to try and head off the stuff that crosses some serious lines.

Yes, several members of production staff received death threats, such as "You kill Spock and we kill you." Even got a news story.

Not sure the reason why more serious death threats happen any more, but given some of the rhetoric against Abrams, it wouldn't surprise me if it popped up again

 

[dswynne1]

The second that the show managed to pick up more than one fan?

As for 'darker and edgier', I started lurking in Trek boards around the release of Nemesis, which was the tail-end of VOY/DS9 and the beginning of ENT. Nowadays everyone is peachy by comparison.

And there's really no such divide between Prime/Nu Fans. If theyre posting here, most likely the hypothetical someone has has seen and liked some of the pre-Abrams Trek. And I'm not even touching the 'liberalism' thing.

I disagree and agree.

I agree that the darker and edgier aspect of 'Trek started on the tail end of DS9/VOY, with the DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior", when the Klingons broke the alliance with the Federation (you should have seen the reaction to THAT one). I think 'Trek got broken with INS, when the audience didn't sympathize with the Baku (I certain didn't), culminating in the low reception of NEM (though, to be fair, the movie was up against stiff competition with the LoTR films). As a result of that, and the low ratings of ENT, fandom with boiled away to its core audience, which was not enough to save it from an ever-changing entertainment market. So, the breaking of 'Trek was over a ten-year period, IMO.

I think the schism within 'Trek fandom is misleading. ST'09 brought in a fresh batch of new fans of 'Trek, which is seen as a threat to the old guard. Also, the old guard didn't like the idea of a "soft-reboot", even though it was stated ON-SCREEN, that the old timeline still exist (which can backed up by the TNG episode "Parallels". This is on top of the fact that there is a romantic view of 'Trek that 'Trek was more like TMP than it was. All that culminated when that bogus survey at Las Vegas ST convention that ranked STiD as the worst ST film ever, conveniently ignoring FF and NEM. Personally, I think that was nothing more than a setup by disgruntled purists who want all 'Trek fans to accept a single interpretation, even as William Shatner once stated that 'Trek, at the end of the day, was just a television show. I can understand that STiD may not be everyone cup-of-tea, and I certainly had problems with the script, but to say that STiD is the worst of the 'Trek films is, well, selfishly stupid. And even now, there is an element within the 'Trek fandom that wants STB to fail as well, just out of spite, and with the hope that Paramount would jettison the JJ Abrams production in order to "return" to the Prime Timeline. Pathetically sad, IMO, since CBS shows NO signs of ever doing that.

Sorry for the rant, but this sort of thing is disgusting to me.

 

[Mudd]

Whether the Baku were sympathetic or not, it never occurred to me that the Federation had the right to take their planet and I still don't think so.

The people with fewer guns than us so often have something we really, really need in order to live the way we really, really want. They certainly do seem selfish, don't they?

 

[topcat]

Things started changing when we had the uber religious episodes created by sisko on DS9. And the same with Vulcan religious practices on Voyager and ENT.
Religion was never the point of star trek. Sure in the old episodes they respected local customs and beliefs to be polite visitors and because the directive was "everyone is equal, so be respectful".
But in DS9, and Voyager region became a "im better then you, my gods are cool. You have no gods so die cardassian pig" 80% of DSP was all regious conflict. The founders are gods you know..

Generations was the official good buy to star trek based on the original foundations set by Roddenberry. The great kirk dies saving the refugee ship, only to be brought back in time to help save the planet of primitive people, only to die in the attempt.
The destruction of the enterprise was B&B flipping the bird to us and showing they were in full control. SInce then its been nuts.

 

[StarFuryG7]

The fandom began changing with the premiere of TNG. Well, probably a few years later actually because the first couple of seasons of that show were pretty dull and most people didn't care it. Once Gene Roddenberry became ill however and could no longer exercise much control over the series and the way it had been developed began to change, a schism began taking shape that pitted fans of the original series (Classic Trekkers) against fan more interested and devoted to the newer show, and with each subsequent series, the fan base split more and more, until we are where we're at today, with the fans of the new Abrams films being at odds with the fans of that prefer prior incarnations of Trek.

It's an ugly situation, but that was its genesis, and it continues through to this day, pretty much unabated.

 

[BillJ]

The destruction of the enterprise was B&B flipping the bird to us and showing they were in full control.

They were mandated by the studio to blow up the Enterprise. There were toys to sell!

 

[topcat]

No it wasn't necessary at all. A modern ship like a galaxy should have the same lifespan as an excelsior. theD was the last vestige of roddenberrys idea for the show. One based on peaceable intentions.

 

[BillJ]

theD was the last vestige of roddenberrys idea for the show. One based on peaceable intentions.

One that could stand toe-to-toe with pretty much any ship in the galaxy. I always wondered how people got "peaceable intentions" in Star Trek?

Q: "Oh, better. And later, on finally reaching deep space, humans of course found enemies to fight out there too. And to broaden those struggles you again found allies for still more murdering. The same old story, all over again. "

 

[BillJ]

"We come in peace. But if you look at us the wrong way, we'll stomp your ass into the ground."

 

[topcat]

I recall that kirk was given the old Starfleet command slap on the wrist many times for using brute force instead of using diplomacy.
And if I recall there was a few instances in Enterprise where Archer was told "we are an agency of discovery not war"

 

[Gov Kodos]

"We come in peace. But if you look at us the wrong way, we'll stomp your ass into the ground."

The episode where the TNG folks had amnesia and were trying to figure out the ship and why they were there was a nice summation. 'We are a battleship.'

I recall that kirk was given the old Starfleet command slap on the wrist many times for using brute force instead of using diplomacy.
And if I recall there was a few instances in Enterprise where Archer was told "we are an agency of discovery not war"

Huh, I can't think of any. The closest was TVH where he got back to where he once belonged.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I recall that kirk was given the old Starfleet command slap on the wrist many times for using brute force instead of using diplomacy.
And if I recall there was a few instances in Enterprise where Archer was told "we are an agency of discovery not war"

You do? I sure don't. I don't recall Starfleet Command contacting Kirk all that often after a mission was over.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The fandom began changing with the premiere of TNG. Well, probably a few years later actually because the first couple of seasons of that show were pretty dull and most people didn't care it. Once Gene Roddenberry became ill however and could no longer exercise much control over the series and the way it had been developed began to change, a schism began taking shape that pitted fans of the original series (Classic Trekkers) against fan more interested and devoted to the newer show

Nah. In 1980, with TMP fresh in my brain, I discovered ST fandom - and, strangely enough, many Trek fans I encountered, who hated TMP with intensity. I was often told that I "would never be a true fan", because I wasn't there at the start (although I was old enough to hav been part of First Fandom). In the mid 80s, when much of our club committee was "newbie fans", everything we did just made 60s Trekkers angrier and angrier.

the fans of the new Abrams films being at odds with the fans of that prefer prior incarnations of Trek.

Some of us like them all.

As for conventions, the change from intimate fan-run cons where celebrity guests hung around with the fans for a whole weekend (and attended the art show, judged the costumes and ate breakfast with attendees) to a Creation Con style, with a few guests making a one-hour stage appearance each, and a one-hour autograph session, was a major paradigm shift in the 1980s.

ST'09 brought in a fresh batch of new fans of 'Trek, which is seen as a threat to the old guard.

So did TMP. I was there - and accused. So did TNG. I was there, too. Many old - and older - fans were impatient with fans who knew Picard, but not Kirk.

 

[The Wormhole]

Things started changing when we had the uber religious episodes created by sisko on DS9.

If anything, DS9 was pretty anti-religious, given they went out of their way to establish the "gods" the Bajorans worshipped were just aliens in a different realm.

And the same with Vulcan religious practices on Voyager and ENT.

Voyager never deal with Vulcan religion outside from a few references to temples and prayer services. And what we saw of Vulcan religion in Enterprise is pretty much in line with what was already established way back in Trek III.

The founders are gods you know..

No, they just pretend to be gods, based on the fact they genetically engineer other races to serve them.

The destruction of the enterprise was B&B flipping the bird to us and showing they were in full control. SInce then its been nuts.

Stop saying "B&B." Okay, so Braga was involved as a co-writer on Generations, but in 1994 he had no real authority over the Trek franchise. That wouldn't come until 1998 when he was put in charge of Voyager. And really, Voyager seasons 5 and 6 and the entire run of Enterprise are the only times when it is accurate to say "B&B."

 

[BillJ]

I recall that kirk was given the old Starfleet command slap on the wrist many times for using brute force instead of using diplomacy.

I've been a fan for forty years and there are obviously episodes that I've missed. Can you let me know which episodes those are?

And if I recall there was a few instances in Enterprise where Archer was told "we are an agency of discovery not war"

Archer learned his lesson pretty quick in "Silent Enemy". Starfleet has always been the military.

 

[suarezguy]

There are different emphases if not overall world views between the original series (somewhat revived and somewhat abandoned with the reboot films) and the TNG style, it's not surprising that even people who like both would prefer one while others would outright reject and be bothered by one.

If TrekBBS and its ilk had been around, we would have had GR versus Meyer threads going, and the argument that TWOK was not "true Trek." (and there is an argument to be made there).

It's hard to determine how people felt in another era but it seems that most fans accepted and praised it and also gave TNG a chance and accepted or liked it. There was disagreement about which style was the best/better but a lot thought both were good.

Which is interesting because TWOK also created a riff between Meyer coming in as an outsider and establishing his own point of view on Trek that even GR disagreed with.

I think the differences were slight enough that most viewers, if they didn't read behind-the-scenes material, wouldn't know that there was a lot of difference between their visions.

I think I know what you mean. When I was younger I was very wide eyed optimistic about Trek. Now that I'm older and more cynical, I find myself rolling my eyes over certain things like (for example) no conflict among humans or no conflict among members of the Enterprise crew. I mean the Enterprise D, because I feel like there was conflict on the original series. With Spock and McCoy anyway.

There was some conflict in TNG, although generally very much on an episodic basis.

I can understand that STiD may not be everyone cup-of-tea, and I certainly had problems with the script, but to say that STiD is the worst of the 'Trek films is, well, selfishly stupid.

It's hardly obvious that some or many of the previous films were worse than it.

 

[fireproof78]

It's hard to determine how people felt in another era but it seems that most fans accepted and praised it and also gave TNG a chance and accepted or liked it. There was disagreement about which style was the best/better but a lot thought both were good.

I agree to a point, but I do know a number of people around for TWOK's release and have called Meyer the Abrams of his day. It may not be the general consensus of the majority at the time, but there are ways to garner insight.

I think the differences were slight enough that most viewers, if they didn't read behind-the-scenes material, wouldn't know that there was a lot of difference between their visions.

Again, it's matter of point of view. I certainly saw differences between TWOK and TMP when I first saw them, and was much younger. I actually enjoyed TMP more as a young adult than TWOK, though that gradually changed.

I do agree with your point that it is difficult to determine, but not as difficult as it at first seems.

 

[suarezguy]

I don't recall there being much of any Trek fans who before recently thought the Federation had any right to take the Baku's planet from them back then.

There are people who call themselves Trek fans now that make that argument. That's a huge change in attude.

I suspect Behr, Beimler and some of the big DS9 fans and also some original series-only would have always thought that Picard was being too idealistic and preachy and should have instead done or accepted a minor bad to get greater good (Kirk did refuse to impose force to get something he wanted in "Mirror, Mirror," although he did threaten to use force to prevent imminent deaths in "Requiem for Methuselah"). It is a surprising but not rare view that an alien species should have less protection if they're not likeable or seemingly reasonable.

I certainly saw differences between TWOK and TMP when I first saw them, and was much younger.

There are differences in story and somewhat even tone but not so much that it seems there's an overall different vision of society or that Roddenberry, though he was less involved, disapproved of the new style.

 

[Vandervecken]

To put it mildly I have problems with the prime directive.

.

As I recall Picard explains the Prime Directive as being enacted/instituted as a direct result of an F-up in first contact with the Klingons. Once bitten, twice shy, but it does at least show that the original reason was for the protection of the Federation, not other worlds/polities, which in fact makes it much more palatable to me.

Still, it was a political reaction born of fear, not necessarily different from many we see governments and legislative bodies do (do something! do something! anything, anything!), and you would expect that eventually the Feds would revisit it. It has clearly become something of a near religion for many people, though, so it would be a tough sell.