when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Gabriel, Jan 15, 2019.

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What century did TOS take place

  1. 23rd century

    95.2%
  2. 22nd century

    4.8%
  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I still say a far simpler explanation is that it doesn't surround the galaxy at all, but is only along the particular portion of the galaxy's edge that the Enterprise visited in "Where No Man" and "By Any Other Name." After all, something surrounding and hugging the entire galactic disk is far from a simple phenomenon, especially since the galactic disk is diffuse and complex in structure and doesn't really have anything that can be meaningfully defined as an "edge" at all, and especially since the disk is just the inner part of the actual galaxy, which also encompasses its much larger stellar and dark-matter haloes. But something that just happens to be spread along a few thousand square light-years of one face of the stellar disk in proximity to the Federation is potentially far simpler to characterize and explain, as seen with Diane Duane's "supernova wavefront" explanation.
     
  2. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not hard for the Q though.

    Just kidding.
     
  3. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    PART ONE (OF SIX) INTRODUCTION

    The assumption that time spans of centuries mentioned in Star Trek are exact to the year or decade is disproved by the inconsistent date ranges it gives for TOS.

    Returning to the subject of when TOS happened, it is my opinion that one should calculate a possible date range for TOS from the chronological information in each TOS episode that has any, and then combine the possible date ranges from the different TOS episodes which have chronological data to find a date range where they all overlap (if possible) to be the possible date range of TOS as a whole.

    And then do the same for the TAS episodes to find a possible date range for TAS. And compare with the possible date range for TOS. If there is a lot of overlap of the two date ranges then the creators of TAS can be credited with being acceptably consistent with TOS.

    And then do the same for the six and a half TOS movies. If their possible date range overlaps a lot with the indicated length of time since TOS and TAS the creators of the TOS movies can be credited with being acceptably consistent with TOS and TAS.

    And continue with various Star Trek productions in the order that they were produced, to see how well the creators of various productions managed to be chronologically consistent with previous productions.

    That is the approach I am taking, finding the possible date range - if any - for TOS.

    It is my belief that, due to the inability of some writers to make accurate historical references and the Star Trek staff not finding and correcting every such error, Star Trek is in an alternate universe that diverged from ours before TOS was produced or broadcast.

    It is my belief that the United Earth government in Star Trek often changes the official Earth calendar and the era that years are counted from, to satisfy various pressure groups. Thus when the year number changes Earth residents sometimes can joke that they are now years, decades, centuries, or millennia older or younger than they were. Half a dozen dates in all of Star Trek up to ENT are explicitly AD or BC. Those dates are certainly AD or BC dates. Each of the many other dates in might possibly be AD or BC dates but could be given in some other Earth date system.

    I believe that when someone mentions a time interval of X hundred years that should be interpreted as them speaking rather loosely and the actual time interval could be anything between (X minus 1) years and (X plus 1) years, to give the widest possible range for that time period consistent with them saying X hundred years.

    In my post number 670 on page 34 of this thread I note that the writers of the official Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future (1993, 1996) make a totally different assumption which they mention in the introduction:

    They also state that they assume that years are Earth years, despite a few notorious cases were years of different length would solve chronological problems.

    In my post number 670 on page 34 of this thread I discuss how well that assumption works with the chronological data in "Space Seed" and Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan - not very well.

    With Khan's date of leaving Earth assumed to be sometime in the early or mid 1990s SS (in the "Space Seed" calendar) it is estimated that khan was in suspended animation for two centuries. 200.000 to 200.999 years after sometime between 1990.000 to 1996.666 gives a possible date range of 2190.000 SS to 2197.665 SS. Adding 15.000 to 15.999 years to that gives a possible date range of 2205.000 SS to 2213.664 SS for Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan.

    Khan tells Terrell that his people swore to obey him 200 years before Terrell was born. If Khan believes that Terrell is between 30 and 60 years old, he believes that Terrell was born between about 2144.001 SS and 2183.664 SS, and thus Khan's people may have swore obedience sometime between about 1943.002 SS and 1983.664 SS, possibly while they were all children.

    Khan also says on Earth 200 years before, he was a prince with power over millions. And that should be sometime between about 2004.001 SS and 2013.664 SS, even though Khan says he left Earth in 1996 SS.

    But if one assumes that the mentions of 200 years could be 100.001 to 299.999 years, then the dates are consistent.

    100.001 to 299.999 years after sometime between 1990.000 to 1996.666 gives a possible date range of 2090.001 SS to 2296.665 SS. Adding 15.000 to 15.999 years to that gives a possible date range of 2105.000 SS to 2312.664 SS.for Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan.

    Khan tells Terrell that his people swore to obey him 200 years before Terrell was born. If Khan believes that Terrell is between 30 and 60 years old, he believes that Terrell was born between about 2044.001 SS and 2282.664 SS, and thus Khan's people may have swore obedience sometime between about 1843.002 SS and 2082.664 SS, a range which includes the period when they would have lived on Earth..

    Khan also says on Earth 200 years before, he was a prince with power over millions. And that should be sometime between about 1805.001 SS and 2212.663 SS, a range which includes the period of 1992 SS to 1996 SS when Khan ruled millions on Earth.

    PART TWO SEASON ONE

    In "Where No Man Has Gone Before":

    If "Nightingale Woman" was written in 1996 TM ( in the Tarbolde-Mitchell) calendar, the present year would be one or two centuries later, and thus between 2096 TM and 2196 TM, which is why some Star Trek chronologies have TOS before AD 2196.

    If the Valiant was lost in space over 200 years before "Where No Man Has Gone Before", and thus before sometime between 2096 TM and 2196 TM, the Valiant should have been lost in space before some time during the period of 1893 TM and 1996 TM.

    In "The Corbomite Maneuver" Kirk says:

    Corbomite is a bluff, but the length of time since Earth began space exploration might be correct, although possibly it includes interplanetary as well as interstellar exploration.

    In "Miri" they beam down to a community which resembles 20th century Earth.

    KIRK: Identical. Earth, as it was in the early 1900s.
    SPOCK: More the, er, mid-1900s I would say, Captain, approximately 1960.

    So it might look like Earth about 1950 to 1970 MC ("Miri" Calendar). Inside a building they find an old piano and:

    So 300.000 to 300.999 years after 1950.000 MC to 1970.999 MC gives 2250.000 MC to 2271.998 MC as the possible date range of "Miri". If Spock was saying that the piano looked like the type of piano mad en Earth about 300 years earlier. But what if Spock meant that the specific piano in that room had been constructed 300 years earlier, or had been gathering dust for 300 years after the disaster? In that case "Miri" would not necessarily happen 300 years after AD 1950-1970.

    Later they often describe the disaster as happening 300 years ago. Is that based on Spock's 300 years statement, or other evidence? If they found evidence that the disaster happened 300 years earlier, Spock might have said that the piano had been abandoned for 300 years which might not have any connection to the Earth year "Miri" happens in.

    If "Spock's "about 300 years" could be between 200.001 and 399.999 years, and it was after an Earth year between 1950.000 MC and 1970.999 MC, the Earth year of "Miri" could be sometime between 2150.001 MC and 2370.998 MC, which might possibly be the same thing as between AD 2150.001 and AD 2370.998. But it is quite possible that Miri's planet resembled Earth about 1960 MC sometime long before or after AD 1960, and thus the possible date range of "Miri" might be much broader than between AD 2150.001 and AD 2370.998.

    PART THREE SEASON ONE CONTINUED

    In "Shore Leave" Sulu finds a revolver:

    There is a website describing old Earth weapons seen in TOS: http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series

    That site calls Sulu's revolve a Smith & Wesson Model 10, first manufactured in AD 1899 and apparently still being manufactured on Earth today in 2019. If Sulu's "couple of centuries" is exact it is 200.000 to 200.999 years putting "Shore Leave" in AD 2219.000 to AD 2220.998 - or later. If Sulu's "Couple of centuries " is 100.001 to 299.999 years, "Shore Leave" could have been sometime between AD 2119.001 and AD 2319.998 - or later.

    But there have been many variants of the Smith & Wesson model 10, some of which look visibly different from others, and some of which might not still be made by AD 2019. And of course it is my belief that Star Trek happens in an alternate universe which diverged from ours before AD 1966, so.that the particular variant Sulu found might have been discontinued in Star Trek before or after it was in our universe.

    In "The Squire of Gothos":

    So if the void is 900 light years from Earth, it would take 900 Earth years for light and images from Earth to reach the void, including Trelane's planet Gothos. And possibly the distance is approximately 900 light years, and might be any distance between 800.001 and 999.999 light years.

    Later Trelane has some very old fashioned ideas about Earth society, causing the Enterprise crew to wonder about his source of information:

    So if Trelane was watching images in light from Earth, which has some other problems, his knowledge would be about 900 years out of date. Which would make "Squire of Gothos" happen 900 years after the era of Trelane's most recent knowledge of Earth:

    People probably started saying "Vive Napoleon" when he became emperor in 1804.

    And Trelane produces dueling pistols:

    Alexander Hamilton (1755/57-1804) was killed in a duel in 1804. So "Squire of Gothos" could be 900 years after AD 1804, or in AD 2704. Of if 900 is 800 to 999, possibly between AD 2604 and AD 2804. Because this is centuries after the date ranges suggest by other episodes, it seem likely that Jaeger and Kirk were wrong about Trelane's source of information about Earth.

    In "Tomorrow is Yesterday" the Enterprise travels back in time to Earth:

    The late 1960s in the "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or TY calendar would be between 1966.666 TY and 1969.999 TY. When Kirk is captured by US Air Force security he is threatened with imprisonment:

    If Kirk's quip is taken seriously, two hundred years in the future ought to be the era of TOS.

    If two hundred years is exactly 200.000 to 200.999 years, the hypothetical era of TOS would be about 2166.666 TY to 2170.998 TY.

    If Two hundred years is 100.001 to 299.999 years, "Tomorrow is Yesterday" should be sometime between 2066.667 TY and 2269.998 TY, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2066.667 and AD 2269.998.

    Continued in post # 724
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  4. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Continued from post # 723

    PART FOUR SEASON TWO


    "Metamorphosis" says that Zefram Cochrane, who "discovered the space warp", disappeared in space 150 years earlier, at the age of 87. If 87 is 87.000 to 87.999, and 150 years is 150.000 to 150.999 years, Cochrane should be between 237.000 and 238.998 years old in "Metamorphosis". If Cochrane was between 20.000 and 40.999 years old when he made his discovery, he would have discovered the space warp about 196.001 to 218.998 years before "Metamorphosis".

    But if 150 years is 125.000 to 175.999 years, Cochrane would have been born between 212.00 and 263.998 years before "Metamorphosis". If Cochrane discovered the space warp aged 20.000 to 40.999, he would have done so between 171.001 and 243.998 years before "Metamorphosis".

    "Wolf in the Fold" has a number of Earth dates given in the calendar used in the episode, which I call the WF (for "Wolf in the Fold") calendar:


    The earliest that Zefraim Cochrane could have discovered the space warp would have been about the year 2018 SS, since mere interplanetary travel required suspended animation until about the year 2018 SS. Therefore the earliest possible date for "Metamorphosis" and presumably "Wolf in the Fold", would seem to be about 2189 SS since Zefraim Cochrane seems to have discovered the space warp at least 171.001 years before "Metamorphosis" and presumably also "Wolf in the Fold".

    So the latest date WF given is 2156 WF. TOS must happen an unknown length of time after 2156 WF. If Earth Humans reached Alpha Eridani II after Cochrane discovered the space warp, and if that discovery was 171.001 to 243.998 years before "Metamorphosis", "Metamorphosis" and presumably "Wolf in the Fold" should be in or before 2400.997 WF at the latest.

    Jack the Ripper killed in AD 1888 in our universe, and might have killed at the same time in the alternate universe of Star Trek. The computer identifies Redjac as:

    And people from other planets react to either the name of Jack the Ripper or to the Earth century:

    If Jack the Ripper killed in AD 1888 in the Star Trek alternate universe as well as in ours, itis possible that the WF calendar used the anno Domini year count just like our Gregorian calendar does. The 19th in the WF calendar would go from 1801 WF to 1900 WF if it doesn't have a year zero. If the WF calendar has a year zero the 19th century in it would go from 1800 WF to 1899 WF.

    If AD 1888 was 1900 WF, the year one in the WF calendar would equal 12 BC. If AD 1888 was 1800 WF, year one in the WF calendar would be AD 88.

    If Jack the Ripper in AD 1888 lived centuries ago, that would be at least 100 years, and probably at least 200 years, and probably less than 1,000 years. So "Wolf in the Fold probably happens between AD 2088 and AD 2888.

    In "Bread and Circuses" a planet with a 20th century technology Roman Empire is found KirK makes a very interesting log entry:

    If the Julius and Augustus Caesars of this Roman planet lived at the same time as those on our Earth, that would be c. 100 BC to 44 BC and 63 BC to 14 AD. 100 BC to 14 AD would be 9901 HE (Holocene Era) to 10014 HE.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_calendar

    If two thousand years is exactly 2,000.000 to 2,000.999 years, the date of "Bread and Circuses" would be between 11901 HE and 12014.999 HE, or AD 1901 to AD 2014.999.

    But if 2,000 years is between 1,000.001 and 2,999.999 years, "Bread and Circuses" should be between 10901.001 He and 13013.999 He, or AD 901.001 and AD 3013.999.

    Of course there is no need for the Julius and Augustus Caesars of that Roman planet to have lived at the same time as the Julius and Augustus Caesars of our Earth.

    PART FIVE SEASON THREE

    In "Plato's Stepchildren" the natives of Platonius were heavily influenced by their expose to classical Greek culture during their visit to Earth:

    After meeting Plato they eventually moved to Platonius:

    Socrates lived from c. 470 BC to 399 BC (c. 9531 He to 9602 HE), and Plato lived from 428/23 BC to 348/47 BC (9573/78 HE to 9653/54 HE). Assuming that the Platonians moved to Platonius in 347 BC (9654 HE) soon after Plato died, 2,500.000 to 2,500.999 years later would be in 12154 He to 11655 HE (AD 2154 to AD 2155.999).

    But if "twenty five hundred years" could be 2,400.001 to 2,599.999 years, the date of "Plato's Stepchildren" could be between 12054.001 HE and 12253.999 HE (AD 2054.001 to AD 2252.999).

    In "Requiem for Methuselah" Spock scans Mr. Flint with a tricorder:

    Later:

    3834 BC was 6167 HE. If "on the order of six thousand years" is 6,000.000 to 6,000.999 years, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 12167.000 HE and 12168.998 HE (AD 2167.000 to AD 2168.998).

    If "on the order of six thousand years" is 5,000.001 to 6,999.999 years, "Requiem for Methuselah" should be between 11167.001 HE and 13167.998 HE (AD 1167.000 to AD 3167.998).

    In "The Savage Curtain" Colonel Green is encountered:

    If Colonel Green was active early in the 21st century in the "Savage Curtain" or SC calendar, that should have been sometime between 2001 SC and 2050 SC, or between 2000 SC and 2049 SC.

    If Colonel green was active sometime between 2000.000 SC and 2050.999 SC, and if "centuries ago" means 100.000 to 999.999 years, "The Savage Curtain" should happen sometime between 2100.000 SC and 3050.998 SC.

    The official Star Trek Chronology: The history of the Future has "The Savage Curtain" happen in AD 2269.

    If "The Savage Curtain is between AD 2269.000 and AD 2269.999, and if three centuries ago is 300.000 to 300.999 years, Abraham Lincoln somehow died sometime between AD 1968.001 and AD 1969.999, 159 to 160 years after he was born.

    If "The Savage Curtain is between AD 2269.000 and AD 2269.999, and if three centuries ago is 200.001 to 399.999 years, Abraham Lincoln somehow died sometime between AD 1869.001 and AD 2069.998.

    Abraham Lincoln died on April 15, AD 1865 in our history, or about AD 1865.284.

    If "three centuries" later is 300.000 to 300.999 years, "The Savage Curtain" would be sometime between AD 2165.284 and AD 2166.283.

    If "three centuries" later is 200.001 to 399.999 years, "The Savage Curtain" would be sometime between AD 2065.285 and AD 2265.283.

    PART SIX THE CONCLUSION

    Using exact date ranges.

    "Space seed" has a possible date range of 2190.000 SS to 2197.665 SS, which might be the same as AD 2190.000 to AD 2197.665.

    "Where No Man Has Gone before" has a possible date range of 2096.000 TM to 2196.999 TM, which might be the same as AD 2096.000 to AD 2196.999.

    "Miri has a possible date range of 2250.000 MC to 2271.998 MC, which might be the same as AD 2250.000 to AD 2271.998, but that depends on the controversial dating method of this episode.

    "Shore Leave" could be between AD 2119.001 and AD 2319.998, or possibly earlier or later.

    "The Squire of Gothos" could be in or after AD 2704.

    "Tomorrow is Yesterday" has a possible date range of 2166.666 TY to 2170.998 TY, which could be the same as AD 2166.666 to AD 2170.998. If Kirk's joke counts.

    "Metamorphosis" Should be in or after 2189 SS, which might be the same as AD 2189.

    :Metamorphosis" should be in or before 2400.997 WF, which might be the same as AD 2400.997.

    "Wolf in the Fold happens sometime after 2156 WF, which might be the same as after AD 2156

    "Wolf in the Fold probably happens sometime between AD 2088 and AD 2888.

    "Bread and Circuses" might possibly happen between AD 1901 and AD 2014.999.

    "Plato's Stepchildren" might happen between AD 2154 and AD 2155.999.

    "Requiem for Methuselah" should happen between AD 2167.000 and AD 2168.998.

    "The Savage Curtain" should happen sometime between 2100.000 SC and 3050.998 SC, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2100.00 and AD 3050.998.

    "The Savage Curtain" would be sometime between AD 2165.284 and AD 2166.283.

    Many of these possible date ranges don't overlap with others.

    Using wide date ranges.

    But if X hundred years could be between (x minus 1) hundred years and (X plus 1) hundred years, the possible date ranges would be much broader and thus there would be much more overlap between them, increasing the probability of a possible date range which fits all the data.

    "Space Seed" could happen sometime between 2090.001 SS and 2296.665 SS, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2090.001 and AD 2296.665.

    "Where No Man Has Gone Before" could happen sometime between 2096 TM and 2196 TM, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2096 and AD 2196.

    "Miri" could happen sometime between 2150.001 MC and 2370.998 MC, which might possibly be the same thing as between AD 2150.001 and AD 2370.998.

    "Shore Leave" could have been sometime between AD 2119.001 and AD 2319.998 -or sometime earlier or later.

    "The Squire of Gothos" could happen sometime between between AD 2604 and AD 2804, but Jaeger and Kirk might have been wrong about the source of Trelane's Earth knowledge.

    "Tomorrow is Yesterday" should be sometime between 2066.667 TY and 2269.998 TY, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2066.667 and AD 2269.998

    "Metamorphosis" could happen sometime between 2189 SS and 2400.997 WF, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2189 and AD 2400.997.

    "Wolf in the Fold happens sometime after 2156 WF, which might be the same as after AD 2156.

    "Wolf in the Fold probably happens between AD 2088 and AD 2888.

    "Bread and Circuses" should be between AD 901.001 and AD 3013.999.

    "Plato's Stepchildren" could be sometime between AD 2054.001 and AD 2252.99.

    "Requiem for Methuselah" should happen between AD 1167.000 and AD 3167.998.

    "The Savage Curtain" should happen sometime between 2100.000 SC and 3050.998 SC, which might be the same as sometime between AD 2100.00 and AD 3050.998.

    "The Savage Curtain" would be sometime between AD 2065.285 and AD 2265.283.

    If all the dates in the various episodes are dates AD or BC, then every episode indication except for "The Squire of Gothos" would put TOS sometime between AD 2189 ("Metamorphosis") and AD 2196 ("Where No Man Has Gone before").

    In case fault might be found with those calculations, the next most restrictive date range would be between AD 2156 ("Wolf in the Fold") and AD 2252.999 ("Plato's Stepchildren").

    In case fault might be found with those calculations, the third most restrictive date range would be between AD 2150.001 ("Miri") and AD 2265.283 ("The Savage Curtain").
     
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  5. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    The barrier, natural or not, was effective in stopping travel through it for both the Federation and the Kelvins (who were more advanced). It also stops the transmission of FLT communications such as subspace radio, and probably subspace sensors, so, only light speed (radio, laser, etc.) communications and sensors work. Once aware of the barrier, the Kelvins and Federation were able to travel through it, so, other alien races would have the technology or immunity to transit through the barrier.

    Based on this analysis, if natural, then the barrier is just a moderate space hazard that effectively disrupts subspace communications. If artificially created, then it's main function is a block to subspace communications and sensors between galaxies and the space between them, and secondary, attempt to block transit of "low" tech races, or warn "higher" tech races that this area is off limits. If the barrier is only in one location and not continuous around the galaxy, then it was designed as a directional block. We have to guess on the motives of the superior race/alien on why they don't want galaxies (or just some galaxies) to communicate with each other, or to detect what is hidden in the void. A galactic non-interference pact? Maybe the alien(s) live in the void and have installed an electric fence to keep out the riffraff.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2019
  6. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  7. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    So, if you overlap all the data (since all of it must be true if on-screen), then you should converge on the real date (range). What is this overlap date? A timeline graphic would be nice.
     
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  8. Phaser Two

    Phaser Two Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    I'd like to answer this question and move on. :D :razz: :beer: ;)

    The answer is the 23rd century.
     
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  9. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Not quite yet. Is it early, mid-, or late 23rd century? :shrug: New poll. :ack:
     
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  10. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I dunno. What I was taught in school was that, less than half, round down, more than half, round up. The notion than either 100.001 or 299.999 approximates 200 is a stretch.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2019
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  11. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TL; DR, thy name is MAGolding.
     
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  12. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yep, I didn't get far either.
     
  13. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Are we still reading this in the 22nd or 23rd century?
     
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  14. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wonder why the Galactic Barrier was never seen or mentioned in the films or the other series? I sort of miss it somehow as it was pretty scary in Where no Man!
    JB
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Well, it's currently the 15th century in the Islamic calendar, the 58th in the Hebrew, and the 20th in the Indian Civil Calendar. And about a month into the Reiwa Period of the Japanese Imperial calendar.
     
  16. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wonder what century the Aborigines of Australia are in? Their culture goes back further than six thousand years or more I believe? :shrug:
    JB
     
  17. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I get the feeling it was too fantasy and goofy a concept for the later Treks (which would introduce their own goofy fantasy concepts like the Nexus)
     
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  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    Depends on if you're reading all of MAGolding's posts.
    Did they ever go there? If not, then why would it be mentioned?

    I don't believe they are a mono-culture, so it would depend on which culture.
     
  19. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In the TNG era there was the Nexus, which was like a smaller, mobile version of the Great Barrier
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    How is the Nexus like the Great Barrier? The Nexus is a star destroying energy field that is also a gateway into another dimension.