When did the Borg begin assimilating, onscreen?

[Nerys Myk]

Yes, Picard was the first person assimilated on screen. As I recall, there's a line of dialogue in "Best of Both Worlds" acknowledging the change.

Shelby: "I thought they weren't interested in Human life forms. Only our technology."

Picard: "Their priorities seem to have changed."

However, if we watch Trek in the order it is set in, we see drones assimilating people in Enterprise, so it seems that we aren't looking at a change in the Borg's behaviour, but rather humans not being aware of something and then becoming aware of it.

Those Borg are from the future.

 

[Lance]

It's such a broadening of the concept that it made Number Six on stardestroyer.net's list of bad Star Trek 'brain bugs':

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/BrainBugs.html

 

[jimbotron]

It's such a broadening of the concept that it made Number Six on stardestroyer.net's list of bad Star Trek 'brain bugs':

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/BrainBugs.html

"But in "Best of Both Worlds", one of the writers had the bright idea of making the Borg kidnap Picard and then assimilate him while aboard their ship, thus setting up one of the best best cliff-hangers in Star Trek history. The situation was resolved (although Star Trek: Insurrection suggests that there may have been lasting brain damage from the incident)"

HA!

 

[Lance]

Well spotted!

I think Picard must've been suffering from "lasting brain damage" through *all* of the TNG movies. It'd certainly explain all of those out-of-character moments.

 

[Timo]

That's a disconnect I have when talking about this. To me, the production point of view is always the basis. "In-universe" has no meaning to me, because the universe can be retconned at any moment.

Hmm. Our knowledge of the production aspects is based on rumor and conjecture, and about 90% of the production effort never really sees the light of the day anyway. In contrast, "in-universe" is the thing we witness with our own eyes and can carefully study by using the pause button and the transcript pages. So I can see one going for the production aspects for the sheer challenge, but Star Trek to me is always the thing that airs between the opening announcement and end credits (minus the opening credits, because I see no reason to believe that James T. Kirk in fact is an impostor going by the name William Shatner).

Thinking that one episode contains the whole truth about fiction and a subsequent episode cannot add to it is rather the antithesis of what drama really is. What would be the point of making an episode of Star Trek when "The Cage" was already made?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

That's a disconnect I have when talking about this. To me, the production point of view is always the basis. "In-universe" has no meaning to me, because the universe can be retconned at any moment. ...

In Q Who, the Borg didn't assimilate People ... Q's dialogue about what the Borg are and how they operate is what it is. ... I have no interest in explaining away retcons.

I sympathize by all means (and wholeheartedly agree with your Borg queen criticism), but consider this:

The Borg had been to the Neutral Zone and assimilated the Earth and Romulan outposts ("The Neutral Zone"), "Q Who" confirmed this:

WORF: Captain, the sixth planet in the system is Class M.
DATA: There is a system of roads on this planet, which indicates a highly industrialised civilisation. But where there should be cities there are only great rips in the surface.
WORF: It is as though some great force just scooped all the machine elements off the face of the planet.
DATA: It is identical to what happened to the outposts along the Neutral Zone.

The Borg turned back because they found nothing of interest to proceed further. The Borg later encountered and examined the memory banks of the Enterprise-D, possibly wondering how a Federation ship could have travelled that far. The memory banks provided no clue. They pursued the "D" only to witness her unexpectedly disappear thanks to the "Q Drive".

Because the Borg were only interested in technology and definitely technology superior to theirs, it is a logical conclusion that they intended to add this "Q Drive" to their technology.

Whether the "Q Drive" was secret technology not listed in the memory banks or some kind of psychic ability of the humans remained unknown to the Borg. The logical course of action was to apprehend and assimilate the captain of the Enterprise-D because he probably knew. Apparently, the Borg vessel from "Q Who" signalled the Borg vessel returning from the Neutral Zone to find the Enterprise-D and assimilate its captain (or crew) if necessary.

This is exactly what happened in "Best of Both Worlds". Of course, that still didn't do the Borg any good because there was no "Q Drive" aboard the Enterprise-D. Obviously they couldn't grasp the concept of the omnipotent Q (think V'ger) or dismissed it as some kind of safety implant in Picard's brain not to reveal the "Q Drive" secrets.

The next logical course of action was to proceed to the source (Earth) in yet another attempt to gain knowledge about the "Q Drive".

This is my rationalization approach to unite the observed facts from "The Neutral Zone", "Q Who" and "BoBW" in one theory with the "Q Drive" being the major motivation to return to Federation territory (which after "Q Who" was to be most definitely expected).

So I'd say we can all enjoy "Best of Both Worlds" with guilt-free pleasure (and I also wrote a treatise enabling us to equally enjoy this scene from "BoBW" with guilt-free pleasure ).

That's one of the reasons I don't bother with Voyager and Enterprise, or the Star Wars prequels and special editions.

Then the only Star Wars film you like is the theatrical version of the first film from 1977?

Because Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker's father and Darth Vader were three distinct and different males according to Kenobi's account (and Lucas made that abundandtly clear in his 1977 Rolling Stone interview).

But in one of the "Making of" videos (expectedly not part of any current SW video release ) he freely admitted that making Darth Vader Luke's father was the right thing to do from a story and drama perspective.

So already here, we had a retcon maneuver by the original creator, but I think most people will not really find fault with it, except for Ben Kenobi's "from a certain point of view" speech in "Jedi".

Bob

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I agree that a lot was retconned, but I'm not sure "wrong" is a valid word to use there. After all, it's just one thing somebody made up disagreeing with another thing somebody made up. Neither of them is "right" or "wrong" because they're both imaginary. They just disagree, is all.

Indeed, any long-running canon changes its details over time, and usually it's the earlier version that's treated as "wrong," or rather superseded by the later version.

Thank you sir! It has long been my belief that rigid "canon" in politics, religion and Star Trek is a stake in the ground for narrow fundamentalist belief. If one needs something to hold "sacred" in order to prove their personal superiority, a canonical argument can certainly suffice. Since the source is from a fictional entertainment vehicle, the idea of a pure canon is simply foolish.

NOTE: This is my view as a fan/citizen, not as a moderator in any way.

 

[Tiberius]

Shelby: "I thought they weren't interested in Human life forms. Only our technology."

Picard: "Their priorities seem to have changed."

However, if we watch Trek in the order it is set in, we see drones assimilating people in Enterprise, so it seems that we aren't looking at a change in the Borg's behaviour, but rather humans not being aware of something and then becoming aware of it.

Exactly. The "information" our heroes obtained on the Borg in "Q Who?" came from two people principally: a mischievous alien known as the God of Lies, and a Listener who didn't really want to discuss the issue, and in general preferred "cryptic" to "informative" even in (especially in!) matters of life and death. It's no wonder they drew false conclusions.

"They are not interested in you, only your technology" is not a categorical statement, apparently. It's a typical Q quip at Picard, about him and the other heroes not being sufficiently interesting individuals or worthy targets of assimilation!

Timo Saloniemi

Woah, are we agreeing on something here? I can't remember that ever happening before!

 

[Tiberius]

(Okay, so why was the Queen aboard? Because there's more than one Queen. That Queen body was destroyed, but the Queen herself survived because she's not a physical being, she's a central coordinating program within the collective consciousness, able to be downloaded into various drone bodies as needed. Cubes operating far from the heart of the Collective may need their own local Queens to maintain control.)

Actually, if the Queen is some kind of mind that stretches across the whole Collective as you say, then the idea of there being more than one isn't needed. More than one body, yes, but only ever one mind...

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, Picard was the first person assimilated on screen. As I recall, there's a line of dialogue in "Best of Both Worlds" acknowledging the change.

Shelby: "I thought they weren't interested in Human life forms. Only our technology."

Picard: "Their priorities seem to have changed."

However, if we watch Trek in the order it is set in, we see drones assimilating people in Enterprise, so it seems that we aren't looking at a change in the Borg's behaviour, but rather humans not being aware of something and then becoming aware of it.

Those Borg are from the future.

True, but bear in mind that we saw the Borg assimilate the Hansens a decade before the start of NExt Gen, so it can't possibly be a change in the behaviour of the Borg between Q Who and the Best of Both Worlds.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, if the Queen is some kind of mind that stretches across the whole Collective as you say, then the idea of there being more than one isn't needed. More than one body, yes, but only ever one mind...

That's essentially what I said.

And the mind we're talking about is the Collective. That's what "Collective" means -- a single consciousness formed out of all the drones linked together. The Queen, as I see it, is simply its coordinating node, the part of the mind that gives it a sense of self-awareness and purpose, like the frontal lobes of the human brain.

 

[Timo]

...Or then a nasty parasite, emergent or intrusive, that runs the Collective for her own purposes.

We could see the Collective struggling to get rid of the monster, pulling this way and that and thus appearing somewhat inconsistent or in pursuit of conflicting goals.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jimbotron]

That's one of the reasons I don't bother with Voyager and Enterprise, or the Star Wars prequels and special editions.

Then the only Star Wars film you like is the theatrical version of the first film from 1977?

Because Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker's father and Darth Vader were three distinct and different males according to Kenobi's account (and Lucas made that abundandtly clear in his 1977 Rolling Stone interview).

Star Wars (not A New Hope), ESB, and parts of ROTJ. I'm not a fan of the rushed finish in ROTJ that brought another Death Star, made Luke and Leia siblings (to get rid of the "another"), and made Vader a pansy (can't have redemption stories if he's killing people left and right like in ESB).

 

[DavidGutierrez]

That awkward moment when you get to a thread that really interests you too late and discover that all of the logos-crushing points have already been made by everyone else.

 

[RoJoHen]

Actually, if the Queen is some kind of mind that stretches across the whole Collective as you say, then the idea of there being more than one isn't needed. More than one body, yes, but only ever one mind...

That's essentially what I said.

And the mind we're talking about is the Collective. That's what "Collective" means -- a single consciousness formed out of all the drones linked together. The Queen, as I see it, is simply its coordinating node, the part of the mind that gives it a sense of self-awareness and purpose, like the frontal lobes of the human brain.

That's all well and good, and that's how I prefer to see it, too.

However, there is a scene in VOY's "Endgame" where the Queen and the Collective are clearly operating as separate entities. I didn't even notice it until the most recent time I watched the episode.

I don't remember the exact dialogue, but it basically goes something like this:

Collective: "Starship Voyager detected. Prepare to intercept."
Queen: "No. Leave them alone."

 

[Christopher]

However, there is a scene in VOY's "Endgame" where the Queen and the Collective are clearly operating as separate entities. I didn't even notice it until the most recent time I watched the episode.

I don't remember the exact dialogue, but it basically goes something like this:

Collective: "Starship Voyager detected. Prepare to intercept."
Queen: "No. Leave them alone."

Here's the thing, though: Our brains work much the same way. We like to think that each of us is a single unified entity, but a human mind is really the result of the interaction of multiple different processes and layers of activity. We have our own central coordinating nodes that harness those multiple inner voices and filter them, reconcile them, and choose among them, providing an impression of a unified will. But we all have conflicting forces within us. We often have to tell ourselves not to do things, or find ourselves absently doing things we weren't consciously aware of. As Deanna Troi said once, when you ask yourself if you're making the right decision, who are you talking to? (And then there's the Kurlan naiksos from "The Chase," representing their belief that each of us has many selves within us.) In this context, "Preparing to intercept" could've been the equivalent of a reflex, a conditioned response that operates on a lower level of processing, but the Queen intervened to halt that automatic response, just as you might reflexively start to do something (say, close your eyes against a bright light) and then consciously stop yourself from doing it.

Indeed, I recently read about a theory that consciousness is an "attention schema," the brain's simulation of its own activity and focus, which it monitors in order to decide how to direct its attention toward what's most relevant. So it's one part of the brain observing the brain as a whole, a feedback mechanism that helps direct our thoughts. Maybe the Queen is the Borg's consciousness in this sense, the Collective watching and directing itself, the traffic cop for all the interacting thoughts and impulses.

That said, I've never liked the way the Queen scenes in "Endgame" were written, with the Queen seeming like a starship captain giving orders to a crew; I agree that it doesn't fit with our understanding of what the Queen is supposed to be, and I think it was lazy writing, like so much else about "Endgame." Personally I choose to interpret those scenes as merely figurative, a dramatization of what was really an internal process within the Collective. There was no reason for actual spoken communication there.

 

[Robert Comsol]

I surely appreciate the effort you are putting up here to make the sceptics among us somehow embrace the concept of the Queen Bee, but here is the original concept again from "Q Who":

TROI: We're not dealing with an individual mind. They don't have a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
PICARD: That would have definite advantages.
TROI: Yes, a single leader can make mistakes. It's far less likely in the combined whole.

Now either I consider Counselor Troi as utterly incompetent or take the Borg queen idea with plenty of salt. Somehow I really love Timo's proposal.

And what's worse: Troi's line already and coincidentally hinted in "Q Who" what would be the only means to actually defeat the Borg in BoBW (i.e. Locutus "making" a mistake).

Bob

 

[jimbotron]

And lo and behold, the Borg are defeated at least twice because the Queen made a mistake. Fooled by Data, that's understandable. Fooled by geriatric Janeway? Shame shame shame.

They must have assimilated the Vogons from H2G2 accidentally and the "bureaucratic mentality" eventually killed them. It is, after all, the only constant in the universe.

 

[Robert Comsol]

^^

Well said!

Bob

 

[Marsden]

I hate to be against the "changed premise" because I think that's what it is, but if the cyBorgs weren't stealing people, wouldn't there have been a lot of corpses around those outposts in "Neutral Zone"?

I think the notion Q wasn't entirely truthful isn't a stretch. So he being the character speaking the information doesn't really make it canon, I hate that word, btw, anymore that Kirk telling Gillian "what? money, we don't use that in the future, you pay for the pizza." I remember a lot of complaing about that one.