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When did canon become such a hot-button issue?

TFA: Let's do some pixel-perfect recreations of props, ships from A New Hope, and engage in familiar tropes of our Campbellian trope-filled franchise.
Fans: OMG YOU RIPPED OFF A NEW HOPE CAN'T YOU DO ANYTHING ORIGINAL

TLJ: Okay, we're gonna flip the narrative a little and play against expectations, mix it up a bit.
Fans: OMG WHAT IS THIS GARBAGE THIS HERESY AGAINST STAR WARS HOW COULD YOU CHANGE THINGS
 
TFA: Let's do some pixel-perfect recreations of props, ships from A New Hope, and engage in familiar tropes of our Campbellian trope-filled franchise.
Fans: OMG YOU RIPPED OFF A NEW HOPE CAN'T YOU DO ANYTHING ORIGINAL

TLJ: Okay, we're gonna flip the narrative a little and play against expectations, mix it up a bit.
Fans: OMG WHAT IS THIS GARBAGE THIS HERESY AGAINST STAR WARS HOW COULD YOU CHANGE THINGS
And this is why we can't have nice things.
 
Sure, sometimes you'd get a feature film that was a direct continuation of an ongoing TV series with the same cast, like Batman (1966) or the two McHale's Navy films or the two Dark Shadows films; but they often had a borderline connection to the shows' continuities at best, insofar as the shows even bothered with continuity.

Yep. Just to clarify, the two original DS movies (not to be confused with the recent Tim Burton movie) were both standalone films that took place outside the continuity of the then-ongoing TV soap opera. The first one was basically a remake of the first vampire storyline, giving it a beginning, middle, and end (and a lot more gore than they were allowed on TV), while the second one was basically an unrelated horror story that just happened to recycle names and locations and actors from the TV series.
 
TLJ: Okay, we're gonna flip the narrative a little and play against expectations, mix it up a bit.

To be honest it looked like they spent most of the effort in that regard on Luke, Rey, Kylo and Snoke and then realising they still had all these other characters to use quickly came up with a pointless side quest to a casino planet to fill up the rest of the film. If Finn had been allowed to sacrifice himself like he wanted to he at least would have been remembered for doing something in the movie.
 
Don't have time to read all of this ATM, so forgive me please if I repeat someone. From my standpoint, canon has always been a discussion, although the terms and goals of the discussion have changed over the decades.

What I really want to talk about, though, is why/if it's important. When I first signed up here, I posted the question "What is the state of canon?" The overall answer, which at the time I didn't like, was most closely "Canon is whatever is one screen." There were also some folks arguing for "Canon is whatever the current producers say it is," but they were the minority.

I'll repeat and condense what I said during that thread: canon is important because it feeds into and creates suspension of disbelief. I believe, at least while I'm watching, that "Errand on Mercy" is really happening. I believe it for many reasons, and a huge chunk of them are various types of links to other episodes, other series, and the films. Some of these are simple, some are more complex, but they all help create the illusion that all of what we see is real.

Compare/contrast with "the Force is an energy field created by all living things" in A New Hope, to the cobbled together idea that the Force is an infectious disease put forth in The Phantom Menace. I've heard several people create explanations for this discrepancy, but the truth is that they are just not two ideas that work well together, and they seem to contradict one another.

The same with Trek canon. I hated the idea that canon is anything on screen. There are some discrepancies which can be tweaked to a satisfying solution (some more, some less, like Kenobi's "What I said was true, from a certain point of view"). There are other contradictions which just cannot be made to work together. Because of those, I came to the conclusion that, at the very least, each series takes place in its own universe, and in some cases individual episodes take place in yet another universe. With shoddy continuity, that's the only way to maintain suspension of disbelief.
 
Compare/contrast with "the Force is an energy field created by all living things" in A New Hope, to the cobbled together idea that the Force is an infectious disease put forth in The Phantom Menace. I've heard several people create explanations for this discrepancy, but the truth is that they are just not two ideas that work well together, and they seem to contradict one another.
There are many problems with midiclorians but they are not the Force.
 
Yep. Just to clarify, the two original DS movies (not to be confused with the recent Tim Burton movie) were both standalone films that took place outside the continuity of the then-ongoing TV soap opera. The first one was basically a remake of the first vampire storyline, giving it a beginning, middle, and end (and a lot more gore than they were allowed on TV), while the second one was basically an unrelated horror story that just happened to recycle names and locations and actors from the TV series.

Yeah, I think there were a number of things that did it that way -- even when it was the same creators doing a work in several different media, they wouldn't be in continuity with each other but would be alternate tellings of the same story, because in that less multimedia-connected world, it was a safe assumption that a lot of the people who encountered the work in one medium would be unfamiliar with its other versions. So it wasn't about tying the different versions into each other, it was about making the basic story available to multiple non-overlapping audiences.

I've seen this a lot in British TV. The first Doctor Who novel was an adaptation of "The Daleks" by the show's story editor, who had worked on the original episode, but he wrote the novel as an alternate version as if it were the first time the Doctor and his companions had met (instead of the second serial). Douglas Adams did multiple different versions of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy that retold the story anew in different media -- first radio, then vinyl records (what we'd now call audiobooks), then novels, then TV, etc. And the creators of Red Dwarf did novels that similarly retold episode plots in a different way, rearranged and expanded for prose. It wasn't about keeping them consistent, it was about starting over and doing a new version of the same thing, adapted for a different medium and audience.


To be honest it looked like they spent most of the effort in that regard on Luke, Rey, Kylo and Snoke and then realising they still had all these other characters to use quickly came up with a pointless side quest to a casino planet to fill up the rest of the film.

I told myself I wouldn't get drawn into this, but the casino quest was absolutely not "pointless." It was vital to the thematic point of the movie, a necessary reminder of just what it is that the Resistance is fighting for. If you're going to tell a story about freedom fighters resisting oppressors, it's important to show the oppression in action, otherwise it's just a superficial excuse for a fight.


I was going to suggest the American TV-movie, but then that's kind of a terrifying mix of sequel and reboot.

At the time, I found it impressive that it was even as faithful as it was -- that it was done as a continuation at all rather than the Americanized reboot I would've expected. And really, its changes were no worse than the cumulative changes the original series itself had accumulated over 27 years, and foreshadowed a lot of the attributes of the modern revival (filmic production values, orchestral scoring, bigger action, a more romantic Doctor, etc.).


The overall answer, which at the time I didn't like, was most closely "Canon is whatever is one screen."

Which, again, is absolutely NOT intended to mean that every last onscreen image is canon. It just means that canon is the finished work rather than the backstage stuff that goes into it or the derivative stories based on it, and in the case of Star Trek, that finished work is a TV/movie series, therefore onscreen.


There were also some folks arguing for "Canon is whatever the current producers say it is," but they were the minority.

But that's also true. Canon just means the final stories, and naturally it's the creators of the stories who create what's in the stories. So that's not only true, it's tautological.


Compare/contrast with "the Force is an energy field created by all living things" in A New Hope, to the cobbled together idea that the Force is an infectious disease put forth in The Phantom Menace.

NO. Not "an infectious disease." An allegory for mitochondria. Mitochondria are not an infection -- they're symbiotic parts of every cell in every living thing from the moment of conception. They're an integral, inseparable part of all living things, the energy source that makes our life possible in the first place. Modulating "that which provides the energy to all life" into "that which connects all life to the Force" is a beautiful and inspired analogy, and it's sad that so many people out there are so biologically illiterate that they can't see it.
 
NO. Not "an infectious disease." An allegory for mitochondria. Mitochondria are not an infection -- they're symbiotic parts of every cell in every living thing from the moment of conception. They're an integral, inseparable part of all living things, the energy source that makes our life possible in the first place. Modulating "that which provides the energy to all life" into "that which connects all life to the Force" is a beautiful and inspired analogy, and it's sad that so many people out there are so biologically illiterate that they can't see it.
As per usual, you put it far better than I could.

There is so much misinformation regarding this concept that it frankly is sad that what Lucas was trying to convey gets lost inside of this speculation and misunderstanding.
 
In my opinion, a long running series of stories, novels, radio episodes, television episodes, etc. that on one hand is not an anthology but has continuing characters and setting but on the other hand does not have a strongly serialized story and plot, should be considered a series of experiences that could possibly happen to the characters and thus which do happen to the characters in some of the countless alternate universes in which the characters and their setting exist.

If many alternate universes do branch off each second - if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, for example - then every time a family is formed, or a group of people are hired to work together, or a group of people are assigned to be the crew of a space ship, etc., etc., they will have many different futures in different alternate universes.

And if the creators of a television series are more or less imagined by the viewers to have somehow gained accurate information about events in the future and in an alternate universe where persons, places, and things exist which don't exist in our universe, then the viewers should find it easy to go a little step farther and imagine that the creators have gained knowledge about events in many different alternate universes, and that the creators have selected what they think are good stories from among the events of countless alternate universes.

There is no reason for the viewers of highly episodic television series to imagine that all of the episodes happen one after another in the same alternate universe, especially considering the extreme improbability of all the events in a long running television series happening one after another in one alternate universe.

I doubt that many creators of television shows, especially the creators of non science fiction shows, thought about it in exactly those terms, but the widespread indifference to continuity in US televisions shows before the last few decades indicates that they did tend to think of episodes as sort of competing possible experiences of the protagonists instead of experiences which all happened to the protagonists one after another.

For example, Kenny McCormick was killed in almost every episode of South Park during the first five seasons, but would be back alive in the next episode.

For example, I remember a Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent cartoon where villain Dishonest John angrily told Greenie the Genie he knew where he could go, and Greenie did go, but he took Dishonest John with him to the inferno. And then Greenie told Dishonest John he had used up his last wish. But Dishonest John showed up in many later episode.

And I remember "Pottsylvania Creeper" a story in The Bullwinkle Show (23 September to 30 September 1962), featured the title man-eating plants loose in the USA eating people. And each time a Pottsylvania creeper ate someone it smiled. In the last episode, Boris, Natasha, and Fearless Leader entered a submarine for Pottsylvania but a creeper seed blew into the hatch right before it closed. When the submarine arrived, the hatch opened and a smiling creeper emerged. But Boris and Natasha appeared in many later episodes.

Thus there seemed to be a general idea in early television that the various episodes weren't totally true in other episodes but were merely various possible events that might possibly happen to the protagonists.

So there is a good bit of reason in considering all TNG episodes to be things which happen to the protagonist after they are assembled on the Enterprise D in "Encounter at Farpoint" in different alternate universes. So each and every episode of TNG should happen in a separate alternate universe branching off from that of "Encounter at Farpoint", except for episodes which are clearly sequels to other episodes. The last episode, "All Good Things" was merely one of countless possible events which could have happened, and thus did happen in alternate universes, at that time.

TNG had a number of story arcs spread over several episodes such as the Q arc, the Borg arc, Worf's Klingon arc, etc., etc.

And it is reasonable to consider all DS9 episodes to be things which happen to the protagonists after they are gathered on Deep Space Nine in "Emissary" in different alternate universes. So each and every episode of DS9 should happen in a separate alternate universe branching off from that of "Emissary", except for episodes which are clearly sequels to other episodes. The last episode, "What We Leave Behind" was merely one of countless possible events which could have happened, and thus did happen in alternate universes, at that time.

DS9 was much more serialized that TNG and a much higher percentage of its episodes were part of various story arcs.

And the same things should be true about Voyager and Enterprise, and their episodes should happen in a large number of alternate universes.

If most episodes of the various Star Trek series happen in alternate universes, that can explain a certain category of inconsistencies. For example, the Voyager episode "Flashback" could be considered a sequel to events similar to but not totally identical to those in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, since Mr. Valtane seems to be killed in "Flashback" but survive in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.

This is my interpretation of the question of Star Trek continuity and canon. Everything in movies and television shows is canon, but most of the events happen in their separate alternate universes and won't be remembered in other alternate universes.

Don't have time to read all of this ATM, so forgive me please if I repeat someone. From my standpoint, canon has always been a discussion, although the terms and goals of the discussion have changed over the decades....

Excuse me, what do you mean by ATM? I don't think that you mean an Automatic Teller Machine, and that is the only thing that I can think of ATM standing for.
 
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That's only about your opinion. You were claiming that other people's criticisms of Enterprise and Kelvin were milder than current criticisms of Discovery, and they were not. They were just as fierce, if not more so, even if the specific reasons for the objections were different.

Oh, God, yes. I still remember the Great Reboot Wars of 2009. I got no actual writing done the weekend the first Abrams movie opened because I kept getting caught up in heated arguments with fans who were practically livid about the movie. And, yes, some people got very emotional about it. Judging by some of the posts, you'd think that Abrams had personally spit on Roddenberry's grave while slapping every fan in the face at the same time. :)

(I remember, in particular, one poignant--if hopelessly misguided--post from a young teenage fan who genuinely seemed to feel hurt and betrayed by the movie.)

And, to this day, you still see people describing the Kelvin movies as "Not Real Trek!" or an "abomination" or a travesty or whatever.

And as for Enterprise . . . how dare they cast the Vulcans in such a negative light? It's character assassination, it's "violating canon," etc.

We've been through this all before.
 
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I doubt that many creators of television shows, especially the creators of non science fiction shows, thought about it in exactly those terms, but the widespread indifference to continuity in US televisions shows before the last few decades indicates that they did tend to think of episodes as sort of competing possible experiences of the protagonists instead of experiences which all happened to the protagonists one after another.

I think they just thought of them as stories to entertain their audience. Since they were imaginary, their relative "reality" was a non-issue. They just had to pretend to be in a common reality even when they ignored or contradicted each other. The audience suspended disbelief about the inconsistencies just as they did about everything else in fiction.

More to the point, they thought of them as a way to make a living. As long as they kept churning out more stories, their audience stayed entertained and they stayed employed. It didn't matter how plausible it was that the heroes had two dozen major, life-threatening adventures every year or that they occasionally gained new family members or old flames or tragic pasts out of nowhere; the important thing was to keep coming up with more stories, to keep the schedule filled and the cast and crew paid.


I suspect part of the reason audiences today are so much more preoccupied with the "reality" of totally made-up stories is that production methods have improved to make the shows and movies we watch more realistic-looking, less obviously stagey and artificial, than they were in the past. And we watch them on huge, high-resolution screens that give them a realistic level of detail instead of trying to wiggle the antennae and adjust the dials enough to let us make out a relatively clear, low-static image on a tiny black-and-white screen. So audiences today expect fiction to feel like reality, and so they expect it to be as cohesive as reality.
 
I told myself I wouldn't get drawn into this, but the casino quest was absolutely not "pointless." It was vital to the thematic point of the movie, a necessary reminder of just what it is that the Resistance is fighting for. If you're going to tell a story about freedom fighters resisting oppressors, it's important to show the oppression in action, otherwise it's just a superficial excuse for a fight.

I get what you're saying but I think TLJ would have benefited from a time skip like other SW films and could have made better use of characters in this regard, particularly Finn as a deserted Stormtrooper. Having said that despite its faults I think TLJ along with Rogue One are the best SW films after the original trilogy.

There is so much misinformation regarding this concept that it frankly is sad that what Lucas was trying to convey gets lost inside of this speculation and misunderstanding.

Sums up the prequel trilogy. Lucas had some good ideas but had difficulty translating and realising them on screen which was why the best SW films aren't made by him.
 
Sums up the prequel trilogy. Lucas had some good ideas but had difficulty translating and realising them on screen which was why the best SW films aren't made by him.
Despite poor execution in a number of places in the PT the midiclorians being the Force, or a blood disease, is one that is easily dealt with, largely because that isn't what the dialog says.
 
I suspect part of the reason audiences today are so much more preoccupied with the "reality" of totally made-up stories is that production methods have improved to make the shows and movies we watch more realistic-looking, less obviously stagey and artificial, than they were in the past. And we watch them on huge, high-resolution screens that give them a realistic level of detail instead of trying to wiggle the antennae and adjust the dials enough to let us make out a relatively clear, low-static image on a tiny black-and-white screen. So audiences today expect fiction to feel like reality, and so they expect it to be as cohesive as reality.


At the risk of sounding like a curmudgeon, it does sometimes seem like modern audiences have gotten much less tolerant of anything that smacks of artificiality or artistic license. Note the frequent references to some continuity glitch, modified art direction, or bit of recasting ruining the "immersion" or "knocking me out of the story."

And, yet, perfect "immersion" (a word I'm coming to loathe along with "canon" and "prime") is impossible. Unless you literally hypnotize yourself into thinking that the latest Star Trek episode (or whatever) is reality, you're always going to be aware on some level that you're "just" watching a movie or TV show. That's how it works.

What's next? Are audiences going to insist that movies and TV shows only cast unknowns so that they won't be distracted by recognizing well-known actors? "That's not Giorgiou, that's Michelle Yeoh! How dare they knock me out of the story by casting somebody I know is an actor!" :)
 
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TNG and DS9 took a few seasons to find their feet, but at least were confident of their premise.
TNG has exactly the SAME premise as the original 'Star Trek' series.

As for DS9 - "Confidence in it's premise...." Hahahahaha!
^^^
Yeah, sure, that's why they added the U.S.S. Defiant in Season 3 and Lt. Worf in Season 4. Seems just as 'slippery' as many of ST: D's 'moves'. Still turned out to be a decent series. (Oh, and in it's day, it too was accused of being to 'grimdark', 'betraying GR's "Vision™" ', etc.
 
And, yet, perfect "immersion" (a word I'm coming to loathe along with "canon" and "prime") is impossible. Unless you literally hypnotize yourself into thinking that the latest Star Trek episode (or whatever) is reality, you're always going to be aware on some level that you're "just" watching a movie or TV show. That's how it works.

Yes. Like I often say, people tend to forget that the phrase is "willing suspension of disbelief." The audience of a work of fiction chooses to play along with the game. Sure, the creators of the fiction have to create enough of an illusion to make the audience want to play along, but the audience still needs to be willing to meet them partway.


What's next? Are audiences going to insist that movies and TV shows only cast unknowns so that they won't be distracted by recognizing well-known actors? "That's not Giorgiou, that's Michelle Yeoh! How dare they knock me out of the story by casting somebody I know is an actor!" :)

And do these people watch traditionally animated cartoons and cry "You can't fool me, those are just drawings!"?
 
Yeah, sure, that's why they added the U.S.S. Defiant in Season 3 and Lt. Worf in Season 4. Seems just as 'slippery' as many of ST: D's 'moves'. Still turned out to be a decent series. (Oh, and in it's day, it too was accused of being to 'grimdark', 'betraying GR's "Vision™" ', etc.

DS9's basic premise was a Starfleet administered former Cardassian space station near a wormhole which non corporeal aliens called 'prophets' lived in that led to the Gamma quadrant. That same premise lasted for seven seasons. Voyager's premise was a Federation starship stranded in the Delta Quadrant trying to get home.

What is Discovery's premise aside from being set 10 years before TOS? It's all over the place.

They just had to send the ship 1000 years into the future for season 3.
 
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