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When did canon become such a hot-button issue?

I'd say it became far more relevant when studios started to reboot everything. Before then, no one really cared. It started becoming contentious when prequels were a thing (Phantom Menace, Enterprise, etc...) and then became blown up by the time reboots got thrown around.

Really it's just an extension of the concept of "studios can't think of anything new".

Studios never "could think of something new". It's just - nowadays they stick with reboots and prequels, which is horrible, because it hinderes creative freedom to an enourmous degree. You can't do an exact cpy of the original, but you can't stray too far away from it either. You're completely boxed in.

In the past, they re-used ideas as much as today. But "spiritual successors" (Westerns and Musicals are popular? Try see something else at the CInema!) - and, my personal favourite - "Next Generation"-type of shows allow for more creative freedom. You still have that safe premise to start off. But if in the middle you got a crazy idea, or want to get rid off an actor, you can just do that.
 
Studios never "could think of something new". It's just - nowadays they stick with reboots and prequels, which is horrible, because it hinderes creative freedom to an enourmous degree. You can't do an exact cpy of the original, but you can't stray too far away from it either. You're completely boxed in.

I see that Perry Mason is now unsurprisingly being remade with John Lithgow.

https://deadline.com/2019/05/john-lithgow-hbo-perry-mason-limited-series-team-downey-1202608975/
 
I think canon became a hot button issue when DSC was set in the Prime timeline. They could've avoided all this by setting it in the Kelvin verse (or another alt-timeline). For sure, some were unhappy with Enterprise and it's alteration of canon, but nothing like the anger over Discovery.

I mean, can you imagine the time-suit thing being built in TOS by the Federation? With infinite storage capacity and in 45 mins. LOL.
 
I think canon became a hot button issue when DSC was set in the Prime timeline. They could've avoided all this by setting it in the Kelvin verse (or another alt-timeline). For sure, some were unhappy with Enterprise and it's alteration of canon, but nothing like the anger over Discovery.

I mean, can you imagine the time-suit thing being built in TOS by the Federation? With infinite storage capacity and in 45 mins. LOL.

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No Spoilers for Season 2 of Discovery!

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/hey-you-spoiley-spoilerson-listen-up.299514/
 
I'd say it became far more relevant when studios started to reboot everything. Before then, no one really cared. It started becoming contentious when prequels were a thing (Phantom Menace, Enterprise, etc...) and then became blown up by the time reboots got thrown around.

Other way around. "Reboots" (i.e. remakes) used to be the rule, not the exception. Nobody cared about continuity back then; even in ongoing film or radio series, the continuity from one installment to the next was cursory at best. And when an older work was remade or a series restarted, there was rarely any continuity with earlier versions. Even if they kept the same actors, they didn't bother with story continuity -- e.g. when Universal revived the Basil Rathbone-Nigel Bruce Sherlock Holmes film series, they updated it from a Victorian setting to the present day and had Holmes fight Nazi spies and saboteurs. Once TV came along and you started to get TV series adaptations of movies, they were almost never in the same continuity as the movies, even when they superficially pretended to be. Either they'd just restart the story from scratch, as the Logan's Run and Planet of the Apes TV series did, or they'd pretend to be sequels to the movies while altering the continuity of the movies freely to fit the show's needs, as Starman, Alien Nation, and Stargate SG-1 did. Sometimes they'd just be loose approximations of the movies that inspired them, like M*A*S*H, the sitcom Alice (loosely based on the film Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore) or The Dukes of Hazzard (loosely based on the film Moonrunners from the same creator).

Sure, sometimes you'd get a feature film that was a direct continuation of an ongoing TV series with the same cast, like Batman (1966) or the two McHale's Navy films or the two Dark Shadows films; but they often had a borderline connection to the shows' continuities at best, insofar as the shows even bothered with continuity.

By the '70s, we had multiple TV "shared universes" of shows and their spinoffs, and then in the '80s (if not earlier) we started to see "Next Generation" revivals of classic shows like Star Trek and Kung Fu and TV-movie revivals/reunions of things like Perry Mason, Columbo, The Rockford Files, The Man from UNCLE, McCloud, the bionic shows, etc. -- but they also tended to play fast and loose with the details of past continuity such as it was, retconning in new backstory or inventing "returning foes from the old days" who'd never actually appeared in the original shows. Few people would've batted an eye back then if ST:TNG had turned out to be a soft reboot only superficially pretending to be in continuity with TOS but freely rewriting the details of the universe; indeed, it's been reported that that's what Gene Roddenberry intended it to be, and that it was later, TOS-fan producers like Ron Moore who brought it more closely into line with TOS continuity.


I have an interesting take on this; if not the episodes, then I like for the characters themselves to be serialized. (IMO) One of the weaknesses of the episodic style of Trek is that it tends to leave characters limited with little growth.

Not really. TNG and a lot of shows that followed it demonstrated that you can effectively balance episodic plots-of-the-week with ongoing character growth and evolution. There's a difference between whether a specific story continues and whether its effect on the characters continues. The problem with TOS was that once its stories were over, the characters forgot about them by the next week, so they had no long-term consequences. But in TNG and other later shows, the stories came to an end but their effect on the characters was allowed to endure. Picard remained haunted by his Borg assimilation. Worf's discommendation had a lasting impact on him. Tasha's death had a lasting impact on Data. And so on. The plots were resolved but the characters were changed by them.

I personally consider that an ideal balance, and it's been somewhat lost in the modern obsession with plot serialization, where the emphasis on plot twists and big mysteries and secrets to be unfolded has elevated plot too far above character and theme.

In Voyager season 2, the writers tried to do a serialized story arc with Michael Jonas spying for the Kazon, but it didn't work out as well as they hoped, and I remember Jeri Taylor (IIRC) saying in an interview that their mistake was that they chose to do a plot arc that came from outside the ship instead of a character arc that came from within. Maybe that's why the biggest serialized threads from then on were character-driven -- Seven of Nine's evolution from Borg to human, Paris and Torres's romance, the Doctor's pursuit of personal growth.


Before I started watching DS9, TNG used to be my favorite. Then one time while watching reruns I noticed everything happens the same way. They usually have an adventure, save the day, then forget about it and off to the next one next week. Sometimes it's so crazy a red shirt is mutilated or something and they're laughing at the end of the episode.

They have what is supposed to be very serious relationships, and then by the next week it's totally forgotten and never mentioned again. Serious, crazy incidents happen and are rarely talked about again. It's like the characters have a constant memory reset button.

That was the norm in TV writing for decades. Episodes were designed to be aired in any order and to be comprehensible to viewers who may have missed previous episodes. TNG came along at a time when we were starting to see more continuity in the sense that events from one episode would more often be remembered and called back in later episodes, but it was usually an intermittent thing -- one episode might have a sequel a few months down the road (like the Klingon politics thread), or a recurring villain (like Q) might come back once a season. Of course there was stronger serialization in nighttime soaps like Dallas and Knots Landing or dramas like Hill Street Blues, but action-adventure shows preferred a more episodic format where the continuity was more an occasional thing.



I see that Perry Mason is now unsurprisingly being remade with John Lithgow.

https://deadline.com/2019/05/john-lithgow-hbo-perry-mason-limited-series-team-downey-1202608975/

Rather, it's being remade with Matthew Rhys in the title role. It's been reported already that it's sort of a "Young Perry Mason" origin story with Perry as a private detective, and it sounds from that article like Lithgow's character will employ young Perry in the same way the older Perry employs Paul Drake.


I think canon became a hot button issue when DSC was set in the Prime timeline. They could've avoided all this by setting it in the Kelvin verse (or another alt-timeline). For sure, some were unhappy with Enterprise and it's alteration of canon, but nothing like the anger over Discovery.

No, it was exactly like the anger over Discovery -- probably even worse, because it was the first time fandom had to cope with a prequel so it was more unprecedented. I was there the whole time, and I remember how fierce the outrage was from the purists.

And no, they wouldn't have avoided the hate by setting it in Kelvin, because the purists hated Kelvin just as fanatically. Just as the purists back in the late '80s loathed and condemned TNG. We've already been through this a dozen times in this thread -- nothing about this is new. It happens every single time Star Trek is revived.
 
We've already been through this a dozen times in this thread -- nothing about this is new. It happens every single time Star Trek is revived.
There is nothing new under the sun, even old King Solomon figured that out millennia ago lol

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
 
Christopher is right. This is nothing new. Hollywood has been in the remake, prequel, and sequel business since the silent era.

Heck, look at the early days of television. Many of those "classic" old shows were reboots of earlier radio shows or feature films or serials. Imagine the internet back in the fifties:

"What the hell? Perry Mason again? Gunsmoke? Topper? Superman? The Lone Ranger? Dr. Kildare? It's official! Hollywood has run out of ideas!" :)

And I'm sure there were folks insisting crankily that nobody could ever replace William Warren as Perry Mason!

(Trivia: Raymond Burr was at least the fourth actor to play Mason on screen.)
 
Heck, look at the early days of television. Many of those "classic" old shows were reboots of earlier radio shows or feature films or serials. Imagine the internet back in the fifties:

"What the hell? Perry Mason again? Gunsmoke? Topper? Superman? The Lone Ranger? Dr. Kildare? It's official! Hollywood has run out of ideas!" :)

Although many of those were basically seen as continuations of the radio shows in the new format, and sometimes had the same producers and creative teams. The George Reeves Superman show was from the same producers and some of the same writers as the radio series, and its premiere was practically a verbatim remake of the radio script of Superman's origin story -- which the radio series had done 3-4 different times over its 10-year run. Initially (the premiere aside), it felt somewhat like a direct continuation of the radio series, with all the same established characters and relationships treated as if they were all well-known to the audience, and featuring radio-original characters like Inspector Henderson (as a regular) and Clark's private-investigator friend Candy Meyers (only once, in the TV adaptation of the radio story "The Stolen Costume"). Over time, though, it went in its own direction and ignored the radio continuity (e.g. treating kryptonite as a new discovery), although the radio show's own continuity had been highly inconsistent anyway.
 
Rather, it's being remade with Matthew Rhys in the title role. It's been reported already that it's sort of a "Young Perry Mason" origin story with Perry as a private detective, and it sounds from that article like Lithgow's character will employ young Perry in the same way the older Perry employs Paul Drake.

Ah, it shows it pays to read beyond the headline then.
 
Or maybe it’s simpler just to address my specifics rather than also surround them with all kinds of generalizations, ranging from autocracy to Comicsgate? Whether or not one agrees these issues are “objective”, they’re not a matter of taste either, or there would be no basis for literary criticism or editorial suggestions.

Some people just have to accept that it’s OK to watch flawed shows and even like certain elements (certainly the ongoing use of Okrand’s Klingon is fresh), but not reject the notion of a shared critical distance even if it doesn’t come up for some during weekly viewing.
The fact that there is a basis for literary criticism does not render these standards as objective. There is still an emotional component that goes in to engaging a media.
 
As long as we're turning our noses up at pop culture and appealing to lofty-minded intellectual authority or whatever, I graduated magna cum laude with a media/communications degree, and I think STDisco is a very well-produced show. I recognize that there are issues with the writing, but I try not to get too worked up about that when I'm sitting down to a weekly episode with a bowl of popcorn. The aspects of the show that I don't enjoy really boil down to my own personal taste. Approaching casual media consumption with a mindset of academic analysis kind of ruins the experience.

And by the way, The Last Jedi is objectively a good movie. :techman:

Kor
 
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Everything's a gradient. Or that's at least how I view it, when it comes to Canon.

Depending on what it is, I'll look at it as (in descending order):
1. That's a pretty major change that makes no sense and adds nothing. What the Hell is this?!
2. That's a pretty major change but I see why they did it. Maybe we can explain it away.
3. That's a pretty major change but I see why they did it and it's a change for the better!
4. That's the kind of change most people won't notice. I could take it or leave it.
5. This is a minor little bit of trivia and you're seriously telling me that's what you care about? "Get a life!"
 
Half a good movie but I enjoyed it more than The Force Awakens which was just a remake of A New Hope.

Don't think TFA is a remake of ANH, any more then any of the other movies are; the series has always been remixing, borrowing, parallelling, meta gaming, meta humoring, and "rhyming" itself for years now. Besides, despite superficial differences at the starting point, the new characters push stuff in new directions as the story progresses.
 
[/QUOTE]No, it was exactly like the anger over Discovery -- probably even worse, because it was the first time fandom had to cope with a prequel so it was more unprecedented. I was there the whole time, and I remember how fierce the outrage was from the purists.

And no, they wouldn't have avoided the hate by setting it in Kelvin, because the purists hated Kelvin just as fanatically. Just as the purists back in the late '80s loathed and condemned TNG. We've already been through this a dozen times in this thread -- nothing about this is new. It happens every single time Star Trek is revived.[/QUOTE]

I was trying to show that although Enterprise was criticised, the stories at least made sense. I think DSC leans more heavily than any other Trek show into the realm of fantasy, rather than sci-fi. Some of the stuff is completely unbelievable.

OK, I get that some people hate Kelvin Trek. But at least you're not ret-conning anything with that. It's a separate thing that doesn't diminish what came before.
 
I was trying to show that although Enterprise was criticised, the stories at least made sense. I think DSC leans more heavily than any other Trek show into the realm of fantasy, rather than sci-fi. Some of the stuff is completely unbelievable.

OK, I get that some people hate Kelvin Trek. But at least you're not ret-conning anything with that. It's a separate thing that doesn't diminish what came before.

That's only about your opinion. You were claiming that other people's criticisms of Enterprise and Kelvin were milder than current criticisms of Discovery, and they were not. They were just as fierce, if not more so, even if the specific reasons for the objections were different.
 
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