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When did canon become such a hot-button issue?

If I could reboot ST from scratch, I'd make aliens like the Klingons, Andorians, and Cardassians nonhumanoid. I'd also set it much further in the future so that humanoids like Vulcans would be human colonists genetically engineered to fit new environments and developed into distinct, independent cultures over a millennium or two. Which would make it easier to justify interspecies hybrids like Spock or Troi, although K'ehleyr or B'Elanna would be out of the question.

I've often thought about this, and I've decided that if I were in charge of rebooting Trek from scratch, the main things I'd keep are the humanoid aliens, the the bright colourful uniforms and the distinctive Starfleet look that Federation ships tend to have. These days, Star Trek needs just a little retrofuturistic cheesiness to really be recognisable as Star Trek.
 
If I could reboot ST from scratch, I'd make aliens like the Klingons, Andorians, and Cardassians nonhumanoid. I'd also set it much further in the future so that humanoids like Vulcans would be human colonists genetically engineered to fit new environments and developed into distinct, independent cultures over a millennium or two. Which would make it easier to justify interspecies hybrids like Spock or Troi, although K'ehleyr or B'Elanna would be out of the question.
I had a similar idea years ago except in my version I would have done away with aliens altogether, everyone would be human. If Star Trek is about exploring the human condition etc. then why not let the various cultures all be human? It would also explain why the federation is so earth centric, because that's where it started. In the backstory I would have the federation have a not so benevolent past with earth ruling all the colonies which led to a civil war during which klingons, romulans, cardassians, ferengi, breen and all the other non federation factions split away, some forming larger empires. The federation would reform into a less centralized state with the larger colonies becoming independent from earth as equal members within the federation, by the time of the series we'd have the political status quo we know.

That would also mean doing away with most alien make up, differences would come from what would naturally occur like humans living on a higher gravity planet being shorter and stockier. Some races could be into genetic modification explaining a more alien looks but most won't.
 
I had a similar idea years ago except in my version I would have done away with aliens altogether, everyone would be human. If Star Trek is about exploring the human condition etc. then why not let the various cultures all be human?

:wtf: Because one of the best ways to explore and understand something is by contrast with something different. Because the value of science fiction is that it lets you put humans in situations and contexts they can't experience in real life so that you can find new and different ways of testing and challenging human nature. And because storytellers as far back as Aesop have known that it's often easier to make a point about human nature to audiences if you sneak it past their prejudices by disguising it as a story about inhuman creatures like animals or aliens or robots.

Star Trek's alien characters, from Spock to Data to Quark to Seven to T'Pol, have always been a vital part of its commentary on human nature, because they're able to look at humanity from the outside, to question and challenge it, to learn from humans and to teach them. You can learn a lot about yourself by listening to people different from yourself.


That would also mean doing away with most alien make up, differences would come from what would naturally occur like humans living on a higher gravity planet being shorter and stockier. Some races could be into genetic modification explaining a more alien looks but most won't.

I feel we've already had too many "humans only" universes in the past couple of decades -- Stargate to an extent, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Killjoys, Dark Matter for most of its run, etc. Sure, it's a budget-saver, and it avoids the implausibility of humanoid aliens, but it's been done so often by this point that it's become a cliche. One thing I like about Discovery is how much they embrace really elaborate prosthetic or digital creature effects and give the ships nicely diverse crews. It's a nice change from the way DS9 and VGR tended to get lazy and default to portraying nearly all background Starfleet officers as human.
 
Only confirms that Star Trek has all kinds of fans. Some want to change everything...basically something totally different with the name Star Trek on it with only the loosest of ties to what came before. Others want consistency in almost all things. Still others may fall in the middle. Some changes in adaptations with some consistency in areas. And even one that wants to do away with aliens all together.

I think it's obvious where I fall. I obviously like consistency and continuity, but don't mind new things added to that continuity. I'd actually prefer my Klingons to look and act like they do in the original series (yes--I'd actually prefer smooth headed Klingons--but more in line with how they had appeared in Enterprise, basically ridged Klingons without the ridges). But I'd have no issues with them finding new, non-humanoid species.

I mean that's just one example.
 
Only confirms that Star Trek has all kinds of fans. Some want to change everything...

I'm a huge fan of what came before. Though I believe they need to burn everything to the ground and start anew.
 
I'm a huge fan of what came before. Though I believe they need to burn everything to the ground and start anew.


One of the reasons I sort of agree with those in the camp that wished they maybe went 100 or 200 years post Nemesis. It would have allowed them to basically start anew sort of like TNG did with only historical ties to what came before. Kind of the best of both worlds. Then any changes could have just been handwaved as "it's over 100 years later so of course there are differences" That probably still wouldn't explain the Giger-Klingons, but you can't have it all I guess.
 
Maybe it would have though? Brought on by the exposure most of the race endured due to Praxis exploding.

Ha-ha. Yeah, I guess there'd probably be a way to explain that away too. If Enterprise could explain smooth-vs-ridged Klingons, I guess anything's possible.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our resident authors was trying to brainstorm ideas about that even now. Some of them would probably see it as a challenge :lol:
 
Only confirms that Star Trek has all kinds of fans. Some want to change everything...basically something totally different with the name Star Trek on it with only the loosest of ties to what came before.

Well, I never said I wanted that. Changing the continuity and worldbuilding doesn't mean abandoning the core characters and themes. Look at something like the Marvel Cinematic Universe or the Arrowverse relative to the comics. They're both continuity reboots, set in worlds that are updated and streamlined and distilled from the source material, but they still embody the stuff that's actually important, the characters and ideas and core storylines and messages. The problem is that too many fans mistake the superficial details of continuity for the real substance of fiction. It doesn't matter if you update what year the stories take place in or rearrange the order in which they happen or change the race or gender of a few of the characters; none of that is the heart of the story. You can faithfully capture the same fundamental characters and stories and values in multiple separate continuities, like all the different versions of Sherlock Holmes out there. It's not about being unconnected to the source, it's about exploring variations on the basic theme. It's about keeping the essence but putting it in a fresh context.
 
Sorry if this has already been mentioned but I thought the canon stuff came up because GR wanted to throw his weight around in favour of his new show (TNG)
I sort of cynically equate it to him divorcing his first wife (TOS/TAS) in favour of his beautiful new wife/moneymaker (TNG).
If GR himself had not bought up the subject would we be talking about it now?'
Without GRs apparent decanonisation of TAS, parts of TOS, TWOK/stuff in the TMP novelisation I would have just said that TNG was set in the Star Trek universe a century later and they had got the Klingon/Romulan stuff wrong. Not that it wasn't canon.
 
Well, I never said I wanted that. Changing the continuity and worldbuilding doesn't mean abandoning the core characters and themes.

I know. I wasn't really referring to any one person. Just that you have fans that do fall in many different areas...on one hand from two extremes--on one side change everything, just have the name Star Trek and maybe some very loose connection philosophically to Star Trek, then the other extreme that is change almost nothing. Probably most fans fall somewhere in between. I'm more toward the consistency end...I know, big surprise, but I'm flexible to some degree. I always point out Enterprise as a good example for me--a balance between updating it for the future yet making it less advanced that the original series.

But I wasn't saying you were in the 'change everything camp'.

If GR himself had not bought up the subject would we be talking about it now?'

Well, I don't think canon is something just confined to Star Trek. Star Wars has their own variety of course. Though I do think the idea of canon became more prevalent as more shows and movies were added. But as others have noted, it's something used more for tie ins, that they had to be aware of canon and not contradict it. I think it was important to show runners too, esp. as the shows became more serialized. If you're going to build on more directly on episodes that came before, you'd want to be aware of what came before.

But then I guess that's more continuity. I guess there's some overlap in a lot of ways.

It does seem, from a storytelling perspective, that the respective showrunners want to respect canon as well. From the Berman era to the current era, it does seem they want the on screen canon to be consistent as much as possible. Even in the Abrams movies, the writers were sensitive to prior canon. Things like making sure Spock was an ambassador. And even noting they were having difficulty with trying to think of ways to have Shatner appear as prime-Kirk because his character was killed. That all shows the showrunners didn't want to throw away canon.
 
Sorry if this has already been mentioned but I thought the canon stuff came up because GR wanted to throw his weight around in favour of his new show (TNG)

To some extent, maybe. I've come to suspect that his desire to declare TAS allegedly "non-canon" may have been connected to his efforts to deny Dorothy Fontana co-creator credit for TNG; it's possible that he was trying to downplay the value of her contributions to the franchise, and since TAS was essentially her baby, he didn't want to count it (even though he was the one officially in charge of it and had fuller creative control over TAS than over any other Trek production he ever worked on, so it was pretty hypocritical to dismiss it as not being "his" Trek). But that's just my own speculation.


If GR himself had not bought up the subject would we be talking about it now?'

As we discussed above, fans have always debated continuity, and the idea of a fictional "canon" goes back to Sherlock Holmes. But the '89 Roddenberry memo did probably create the myth of canon as some kind of officially declared doctrine or a seal of approval that can be granted or revoked by executive fiat, and that elevated the arguments to a whole new level.

Without GRs apparent decanonisation of TAS, parts of TOS, TWOK/stuff in the TMP novelisation I would have just said that TNG was set in the Star Trek universe a century later and they had got the Klingon/Romulan stuff wrong. Not that it wasn't canon.

People didn't need to be preoccupied with the word "canon" to have opinions about what stories "counted" in a fictional universe. The concept existed with or without the label. A few years back, someone around here posted a scan of a letter from a 1982 magazine like Starlog or Cinefantastique, from a fan who insisted that ST:TMP and TWOK couldn't possibly be in the same universe as the original ST because everything looked too different, Chekov hadn't been there in "Space Seed," etc. In their opinion, the movies were what we'd now call a reboot.

And there was longstanding disagreement among fans over whether the animated series counted, long before the '89 memo. There's a letters page in, I think, a 1984 issue of DC's first Trek comic where editor Bob Greenberger mentioned that he considered TAS to "count" but the book's writer Mike Barr didn't.


Well, I don't think canon is something just confined to Star Trek. Star Wars has their own variety of course. Though I do think the idea of canon became more prevalent as more shows and movies were added. But as others have noted, it's something used more for tie ins, that they had to be aware of canon and not contradict it. I think it was important to show runners too, esp. as the shows became more serialized. If you're going to build on more directly on episodes that came before, you'd want to be aware of what came before.

But then I guess that's more continuity.

Exactly. Creators don't have to think of that as "canon," because that's a word that's only relevant when comparing it to outside works. To them, it's just internal consistency, the common-sense considerations of creating the illusion of a cohesive reality. Canon schmanon, it's just about using the toys that are already in the box.

And it's not a matter of compulsion for them. The creators of a canon are perfectly free to change or ignore its past continuity if they want, though generally they try to do it subtly or concoct a rationalization for the change. It's only tie-in authors who are required to stay true to the canon, because we're just guests in someone else's home and they make the rules. If you own your own home, you can remodel it however you want, but if you're just a tenant, the most you can do is hang a few posters or plants.
 
Yeah, true. I guess it's just that it seemed starting in the 80's sequels became a lot more frequent, and usually to lesser regarded films. And then in the 2000s it remakes were endlessly being done. Then it was reboots. Now it's sequels to the reboots. I remember thinking when Rob Zombie's Halloween II came out I thought "My God, not only do we have reboots, but WE HAVE FREAKIN REBOOTS OF THE SEQUELS NOW" I think it's just the frequency seems to have increased.

If the reboots/remakes were consistently good I doubt people would criticize them so much. Sometimes they are superior to the original. Since you also like horror, John Carpenter's The Thing and the 80's version of The Blob were both superior to the originals, but then you had the remake of Psycho in 1998 and Night of the Living Dead in 1990 and they were trash. I also remember reading once that J-Lo wanted to star in a remake of Casablanca but it was thankfully killed before it got off the ground. Could you imagine the trainwreck that would have been? What could she have possibly added to the original film? I think that's the key to creating a good remake/reboot. Shakespeare took ideas from earlier playwrights and improved upon them, which is why we like his versions more than the originals most of the time.
 
Nicholas Meyer wasn't a fan of Star Trek when he made Wrath of Khan which is probably the best Trek movie. Nolan and Burton weren't Batman fans yet made the best Batman movies.

This is a good point though both of them are talented and could make something good regardless if they were in love with the subject matter. Being a fan of a movie genre doesn't make you good at directing them. For instance, I appreciate and share Rob Zombie's love for horror but I can't stand his films.
 
If the reboots/remakes were consistently good I doubt people would criticize them so much. Sometimes they are superior to the original. Since you also like horror, John Carpenter's The Thing and the 80's version of The Blob were both superior to the originals, but then you had the remake of Psycho in 1998 and Night of the Living Dead in 1990 and they were trash. I also remember reading once that J-Lo wanted to star in a remake of Casablanca but it was thankfully killed before it got off the ground. Could you imagine the trainwreck that would have been? What could she have possibly added to the original film? I think that's the key to creating a good remake/reboot. Shakespeare took ideas from earlier playwrights and improved upon them, which is why we like his versions more than the originals most of the time.

On the other hand, the world is full of "original" movies that fall flat, so I'm not sure whether the occasional bad remake is worse than the occasional bad movie that isn't a reboot. Ultimately, it's the execution that matters, not the source material (or lack of same).

Where things get weird is when folks seem to think that one version is "replacing" or "ruining" the previous version, instead of just being, you know, a new variation of the theme. There's no rule that says there can only be one "definitive" version of anything. We can like and enjoy multiple versions of the same property, each on their own terms.
 
If the reboots/remakes were consistently good I doubt people would criticize them so much.

See, this is the thing. Per Sturgeon's Law, 90% of everything is garbage. The majority of examples of any category of storytelling will be bad or mediocre, and only a few instances will really be of high quality. Often there will be one seminal example that's really excellent and successful, which then spawns a lot of imitators that totally bomb (e.g. the Marvel Cinematic Universe vs. all the other failed cinematic universes that tried to copy it). But people always forget that and irrationally treat the entire category as a monolithic thing, assuming that all examples of it are equally bad.

So no, reboots are not consistently good, because absolutely nothing is consistently good. It's not the category that determines quality. In any category, some examples will be brilliant, some will be awful, and most will be somewhere in between. But the fact that some of them are good or even great is what makes it worth continuing to try. I just wish people would remember that and criticize things individually instead of blaming the entire category for their shortcomings.
 
So no, reboots are not consistently good, because absolutely nothing is consistently good. It's not the category that determines quality. In any category, some examples will be brilliant, some will be awful, and most will be somewhere in between. But the fact that some of them are good or even great is what makes it worth continuing to try. I just wish people would remember that and criticize things individually instead of blaming the entire category for their shortcomings.

Yes, you're absolutely correct. I's a perfectionist fallacy to expect consistently good films. The quantity of reboots/remakes are more responsible for creating this mindset where anything that belongs to this category is automatically a lazy cash grab, and unfortunately a lot of people miss out on good films as a result. Sometimes I fall into this cynical attitude because I've seen a lot of lame horror remakes over the past ten years.
 
I still remember an on-line debate on the remake of TRUE GRIT in which I honestly couldn't tell which side was being more unreasonable. On one side, you had the Old Coots for whom the very idea of remaking TRUE GRIT was sacrilege. ("Nobody will ever replace the Duke!"). On the other side, you had the Callow Youths who couldn't care less about some old movie made before they were born. ("Nobody cares about John Wayne anymore, grandpa.")

The crazy idea that maybe, just maybe both movies had their merits was apparently not even on the table.
 
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I still remember an on-line debate on the remake of TRUE GRIT in which I honestly couldn't tell which side was being more unreasonable. On one side, you had the Old Coots for whom the very idea of remaking TRUE GRIT was sacrilege. ("Nobody will ever replace the Duke!"). On the other side, you had the Callow Youths who couldn't care less about some old movie made before they were born. ("Nobody cares about John Wayne anymore, grandpa.")

The crazy idea that maybe, just maybe both movies had their merits was apparently not on the table.

"Balance is key" as Mr. Miyagi would say. I can understand anger at someone who just poops all over established universes without a thought for continuity, but rigidly adhering to canon inhibits creativity.
 
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