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When did canon become such a hot-button issue?

The animated series isn't canon.

Myth. The 1989 Roddenberry memo "decanonizing" TAS was issued after Roddenberry had been eased back to a ceremonial role and no longer had any power over the shows. TNG and DS9 both referenced TAS during the time the "ban" was supposedly in effect. The only things the "ban" affected were the tie-in books and comics and what they were allowed to reference, and that policy ended after Roddenberry died. These days, TAS is listed equally to the other shows on "canon-only" sites like StarTrek.com and Memory Alpha, and we Trek novelists are free to incorporate TAS elements in our books as freely as we use elements from live-action canon.
 
As I've been saying, this is not true; there were always fans who objected to the perceived continuity errors in sequels like the movies and TNG, who refused to accept the redesign of the Klingons or the other reinterpretations of the universe. The change to prequels just shifted the topic of the objections. It didn't change human nature, the inability of some people to accept anything that challenges their preconceptions and assumptions.

I was posting on bulletin boards as early as 1996. I know something of what it was like online from that time on. I said literally that the canon debates were always there. I did say that. I quote, from Post #136, "Sure, the Canon Debates were always there, but they didn't multiply until Star Trek began doing prequels."

My point is that I think they became more so and more intense when ENT started. I'm not saying the debates and arguments didn't exist before then. I'm saying the level of degree changed from 2001 on. I'm saying the permanence changed.

I'm sure everyone was raging 1979 and 1987, but the intensity seemed to die down -- from my perspective -- by the time I became a fan in 1991 and got online in 1996. I never got the sense, in the '90s, that the Klingon Forehead Debate was that heated. I did NOT get that sense. I'm sure all the hardcore Trekkies hated TNG in 1987. But by the time I became a fan, it seemed like it was accepted by most except for by a subset of TOS Only fans. Most people I knew IRL watched TNG and, online in 1996, it seemed as if TOS was the underdog, not the other way around. In the '90s, it was TNG Dominance. Most people think of TOS as Star Trek but, at the time, TNG was seriously challenging that idea. In a canon debate, it seemed the prevailing opinion was that the TNG interpretation of things was the "correct" version.

ENT and the Kelvin Films seems like the point where Division, Hatred, and Canon Debates alike all seemed to be at their zenith. Even in the DSC Forum, you don't see the intensity that used to be there before, with the other two prequel/reboots.
 
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I was a bit distressed that the whole "Strangers from the Sky" history was unraveled in that film

Same. And the novel "Federation" is still my preferred head canon about Cochrane.

Back in 1996 when the Paul McGann Doctor Who movie came out, I was participating in a local computer network's bulletin board, and there was this one poster on the board who was absolutely fanatical in his hatred for the McGann movie and the ways it got Doctor Who "wrong" -- ignoring all my attempts to point out how completely the original series had changed its style and continuity over the decades so that there had never really been a single "right" version of it anyway.

I fear for the sanity of anyone who tries to maintain Doctor Who as having any kind of continuity. Indeed, DW is a good guide for accepting continuity errors in Trek: if it's getting you upset, just imagine there's a gajillion different timelines.

Also, read The Discontinuity Guide. It's a riot.

The James Blish and Alan Dean Foster books of episode adaptations probably helped too -- although they had notable continuity differences from the episodes they were based on.

I adore the Blish adaptations. They kept me going in the days before VHS, and these days they are fascinating to see how they diverge from the stories as aired. A favorite is "Naked Time," which has McCoy trapped down in Sickbay and Uhura has to climb down between decks, sending him a message by tapping Morse code on the hull with a hammer. Oh, and Spock doesn't get his big scene, but spends the end of the story offscreen, singing in his quarters.

I definitely think that the availability of things like the Concordance and the Okuda Chronology / Encyclopedias just added to the belief that this was all one, carefully woven, unified tale. When, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth. It's actually amazing it holds up as well as it does.

I want to start a cult that only accepts Gold Key Star Trek Comics as the true reality. every single iteration thereof is a distorted and flawed version of the Truth until we arrive at our own hellish nonreality.

I would love to see Star Trek novels that throw continuity out the window the way they did in some of those old Bantam novels. There was a recent comic that included a story done in the style of the Gold Key Comics, and it was brilliant.
 
Myth. The 1989 Roddenberry memo "decanonizing" TAS was issued after Roddenberry had been eased back to a ceremonial role and no longer had any power over the shows. TNG and DS9 both referenced TAS during the time the "ban" was supposedly in effect. The only things the "ban" affected were the tie-in books and comics and what they were allowed to reference, and that policy ended after Roddenberry died. These days, TAS is listed equally to the other shows on "canon-only" sites like StarTrek.com and Memory Alpha, and we Trek novelists are free to incorporate TAS elements in our books as freely as we use elements from live-action canon.
Interesting. I wonder if the giant Spock clone is still alive then.
 
we Trek novelists are free to incorporate TAS elements in our books as freely as we use elements from live-action canon.
I am curious, if it is ok to answer this, do you all have instructions on how to handle Kzin or is that a licensing issue?
 
It's implicit that the two different timelines coexist rather than overwriting each other.

In that case why did the Enterprise have to go back to 2063 to stop the Borg assimilating the Earth? Why did the Enterprise C have to be sent back to 2344 to stop the war with the Klingons breaking out?
 
ENT and the Kelvin Films seems like the point where Division, Hatred, and Canon Debates alike all seemed to be at their zenith. Even in the DSC Forum, you don't see the intensity that used to be there before, with the other two prequel/reboots.

I think you will see it rage just as nastily outside this site. I'm not 100 percent decided if the nastiness is a result of prequels, or the emergence of social media that allows people to be nasty anonymously in increasingly efficient ways.

Interesting. I wonder if the giant Spock clone is still alive then.

Definitely. We need to find him.
 
I think you will see it rage just as nastily outside this site. I'm not 100 percent decided if the nastiness is a result of prequels, or the emergence of social media that allows people to be nasty anonymously in increasingly efficient ways.

Probably Social Media. It seems like they have roughly the same disdain for the Picard Series as they do for Discovery. I agree with something @Vger23 said elsewhere that they might end up hating the Picard Series even more because they'll perceive it as taking direct aim at TNG: which is the series most of them grew up with, not TOS. With DSC, the reaction is "What have they done to Star Trek?!" With the Picard Series, it'll be different. It'll be "What have they done to my Star Trek?!"
 
ENT and the Kelvin Films seems like the point where Division, Hatred, and Canon Debates alike all seemed to be at their zenith. Even in the DSC Forum, you don't see the intensity that used to be there before, with the other two prequel/reboots.
Probably Social Media. It seems like they have roughly the same disdain for the Picard Series as they do for Discovery. I agree with something @Vger23 said elsewhere that they might end up hating the Picard Series even more because they'll perceive it as taking direct aim TNG: which is the series most of them grew up with, not TOS. With DSC, the reaction is "What have they done to Star Trek?!" With the Picard Series, it'll be different. It'll be "What have they done to my Star Trek?!"
I think you answered your own question. Fandom has gone from personal enjoyment to personal ownership to the point that change doesn't just represent a new idea, but an attack on personal property.
 
The value of canon is in preserving a sense of immersion in a fictional universe on top of whatever value can be found in individual stories. It's about avoiding plot holes on the scale of a franchise. Now, certainly there are properties (like Transformers) which allow for frequent reboots by design, but on the other end you have Star Wars which at least tries to maintain a single official continuity.

What is important is clarity: the debates such as those surrounding ENT or DSC occurred because Star Trek had adopted a principle where by the time of TNG at least, TMP was definitely not a reboot of TOS, and TNG certainly not one of the films (what with all the reuse). If you prime the audience with one principle for years, it becomes grating if Star Trek: First Contact seems to indicate that Cochrane was older (he could've aged poorly before being rejuvenated), or that the future has been slightly updated with 1996 and later 2001 in mind. Of course, ENT developed its compromise which seemed to have been okay'd by most, but DSC explicitly broke with it in keeping all the backstory but not production design.

However, I believe even that will eventually be solved with a more specific designation on top of the shared Prime Timeline moniker: the point is merely that deviations from precedent should be explained to end discussion, rather than kept vague and fuel it. Imagine if Bryan Fuller had thrown things into sharp relief by saying in 2016 already that the Timeline, the basic events would remain Prime -- whatever happened in 2256 more-or-less happened in everyone's vision -- but that the "Abramsverse" has been formalized into the "Abrams universe" (to allow for the Prime Kelvin in the same basic style), and that the new show would be set in the "Discovery universe". There would still be minor debate on what exactly can be shared between universes, but that would be resolved more easily by comparison.
 
I was posting on bulletin boards as early as 1996. I know something of what it was like online from that time on. I said literally that the canon debates were always there. I did say that. I quote, from Post #136, "Sure, the Canon Debates were always there, but they didn't multiply until Star Trek began doing prequels."

My point is that I think they became more so and more intense when ENT started. I'm not saying the debates and arguments didn't exist before then. I'm saying the level of degree changed from 2001 on. I'm saying the permanence changed.

Okay, that's fair, but I disagree with you about the cause for it. I don't think that the subset of hardcore purists and canon objectors increased as a result of ENT; I think that same small cadre just got louder and more dominant because the Internet made it easier for them to be heard. It's the same pattern you see in other areas, like the misogynist harassment of female gamers and comics creators and actresses, or the re-emergence of white supremacist radicals as a political force. They aren't actually more numerous than they were before, but the Internet has made it easier for them to get their message out, to directly confront the people they disagree with, and to connect with like-minded people with whom they can coordinate and reinforce their message. So those groups seem more numerous and powerful even though they aren't really. They've just been able to amplify the impact of their presence.

So I don't believe that a move back to Trek sequels will give us any relief from the haters, because this is a trend that exists well beyond Trek fandom alone and is a function of broader cultural and tech trends. I think that organized outrage will continue to be a factor in fandom until the larger online culture finds a way to tame or marginalize it again.


ENT and the Kelvin Films seems like the point where Division, Hatred, and Canon Debates alike all seemed to be at their zenith. Even in the DSC Forum, you don't see the intensity that used to be there before, with the other two prequel/reboots.

Which might be because the most rabid negative voices got banned, or because they moved on to other areas where they could vent their rage. I do think what's going on in Trek is just a subset of something bigger.


I am curious, if it is ok to answer this, do you all have instructions on how to handle Kzin or is that a licensing issue?

It wouldn't come up unless one of us specifically proposed using the Kzinti, which I've never done. It's not like we get sent some kind of list of rules or something. We just propose ideas and our editor and the CBS Licensing folks tell us if there's something we need to change.


In that case why did the Enterprise have to go back to 2063 to stop the Borg assimilating the Earth? Why did the Enterprise C have to be sent back to 2344 to stop the war with the Klingons breaking out?

Why do people assume every time travel event has to work exactly the same way? That's not how physics works. The same laws apply everywhere, but their results depend on the specific conditions. Striking a match in a vacuum will have a very different result from striking a match in a fireworks warehouse.

And even Trek canon shows different time travels working in different ways -- "The City on the Edge of Forever" and "Yesteryear" show time travel changing things while "Assignment: Earth" and The Voyage Home show time travelers as integral parts of existing history. Even in Trek, it can go either way.
 
they might end up hating the Picard Series even more because they'll perceive it as taking direct aim at TNG

Most fans will probably be happy as long as Picard is still recognisably Picard and the universe can still be recognised as the one TNG inhabited. There is probably a fear of self indulgent writers wanting to use the project to win writing awards and try to make 'Picard' the next 'Logan', believing character deconstruction and subverting expectations equals a good end product. If that's the case we can inevitably look forward to seeing an embittered, elderly Picard long since given up on Starfleet and Federation ideals, which seems a bit of a cliche.
 
No, for the five millionth time, that is not the intent. The Kelvin timeline branched off from the Prime timeline; it did not erase it. It's nonsensical to think that the creators of the movies wanted to eliminate the Prime timeline from existence.

It was made quite clear in ST09 that Nero had created an alternate timeline (ala Parallels) rather than rewriting the existing timeline (ala Yesterday's Enterprise). They went out of their way to explain it.

Time travel has been reflected in Trek in many ways, from Naked Time to Cause and Effect, from Matter of Perspective to Endgame, from the Temporal Cold War to Wrongs Darker than Death or Night

I remember getting into a, um, lively discussion about that on trekmovie once. I was arguing much like you guys, that it was a parallel timeline, that Bob Orci had even stated one of his inspirations being the TNG episode "Parallels".

The other person was arguing, no, that was not canon. They didn't say in the movie literally it was a parallel timeline. I inferred it, yes, based on dialogue in the movie and what the writers said their intent was. But the other person just kept arguing it wasn't canon. Some people you just can't argue with.

In a way I actually find limiting yourself to just 'canon' would be, well, limiting. I realize the purpose of it. I mean, with any franchise you want certain parameters, otherwise it would just be chaos. But if I limited myself to just canon, I'd miss out on a whole world of novels.

I do prefer a more linear continuity, yes. But that's a different animal. And continuity can open some doors to creativity. My enjoyment of novels when they 'fix' inconsistent plot elements for instance. In a way, inconsistencies can open the door to some interesting stories. Even in canon, like the Enterprise episodes that addressed the different appearance of the Klingons. It was an interesting plot device to come up with. Or novels that take two disparate stories and make sense out of them.

But when it comes to timelines in Star Trek, you have some stories where it overwrites the prime timeline, and others where it creates a parallel timeline. I don't think either is inconsistent with things we've seen in the past with Star Trek.
 
The value of canon is in preserving a sense of immersion in a fictional universe on top of whatever value can be found in individual stories. It's about avoiding plot holes on the scale of a franchise. Now, certainly there are properties (like Transformers) which allow for frequent reboots by design, but on the other end you have Star Wars which at least tries to maintain a single official continuity.
The problem is that this one single continuity already had variety in continuity. So, efforts to make it all one come across as odd now when TMP was a reboot of sorts to TOS, and TNG was a reboot of sorts as GR made efforts to distance himself from TOS.

You did hit the nail on the head in that the value is in individual stories. I like worldbuilding but if it is done to sacrifice stories about characters it is no longer of value to me.
 
Most fans will probably be happy as long as Picard is still recognisably Picard and the universe can still be recognised as the one TNG inhabited. There is probably a fear of self indulgent writers wanting to use the project to win writing awards and try to make 'Picard' the next 'Logan', believing character deconstruction and subverting expectations equals a good end product. If that's the case we can inevitably look forward to seeing an embittered, elderly Picard long since given up on Starfleet and Federation ideals, which seems a bit of a cliche.

Depends on the political climate. Picard has his own morals, if it clashes with the Federation or Starfleet he will stick to his principles as much as possible Re Nemesis (Whether one agrees with his stance in that film or not).
 
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I think you will see it rage just as nastily outside this site. I'm not 100 percent decided if the nastiness is a result of prequels, or the emergence of social media that allows people to be nasty anonymously in increasingly efficient ways.
I think you answered your own question. Fandom has gone from personal enjoyment to personal ownership to the point that change doesn't just represent a new idea, but an attack on personal property.

On a related note: I lean towards Social Media giving a disproportionate voice to those who feel that way. If Discovery were actually as hated as those YouTubers make it out to be, evidence of that should be seeping through into here. The Disco Forum should be a total War Zone complete with five moderators (with high turnover), threads being closed left and right, and infractions being handed out like candy. That's what it should look like. Yet it doesn't.
 
What is important is clarity: the debates such as those surrounding ENT or DSC occurred because Star Trek had adopted a principle where by the time of TNG at least, TMP was definitely not a reboot of TOS, and TNG certainly not one of the films (what with all the reuse).

The reuse was for budgetary reasons, which has nothing to do with continuity. Lots of sets, costumes, stock footage, and other assets get reused by different productions in separate continuities, like when season 1 of The Incredible Hulk built three episodes around stock footage from the Universal movies Earthquake, Airport, and Duel, or when Lost in Space, The Twilight Zone, and other shows featured Robby the Robot from Forbidden Planet as a character or prop.

Indeed, Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer did consider The Wrath of Khan something of a soft reboot of TMP, tacitly ignoring it while not overtly contradicting it; the only reason they reused the sets, miniatures, etc. was because of the film's low budget. And Roddenberry considered TNG to be a soft reboot as well, a chance to cast aside those bits of past Trek productions that he was dissatisfied with or considered inauthentic. It was only after he was gone that later producers started making more explicit ties to Trek's history.

The only thing that dictates continuity is story, not visuals or props or costumes. If two stories say they're in the same reality, they are even if they redesign every set and prop and costume, like Discovery has done. And if they say they're in different realities, then they are even if they use the same sets and assets (for instance, King Kong and The Most Dangerous Game were filmed on many of the same sets by the same actors and production crew, but they weren't meant to represent the same characters or locations).


Imagine if Bryan Fuller had thrown things into sharp relief by saying in 2016 already that the Timeline, the basic events would remain Prime -- whatever happened in 2256 more-or-less happened in everyone's vision -- but that the "Abramsverse" has been formalized into the "Abrams universe" (to allow for the Prime Kelvin in the same basic style), and that the new show would be set in the "Discovery universe". There would still be minor debate on what exactly can be shared between universes, but that would be resolved more easily by comparison.

It's not the responsibility of storytellers to quell audience debates; heck, if anything, the more people debate a story, the better, because it means you've got people talking and thinking about it and paying attention to it. So creators shouldn't be afraid to let audiences disagree with their choices, nor should they let their fear of audience reaction get in the way of telling their stories the way they need to be told.

And again, design is not story. Design is the choice of individual designers and producers. Besides, Bryan Fuller had no responsibility for the Kelvin films, because he wasn't involved in their production, and they were made by Paramount and Bad Robot while Fuller was working on a CBS/Secret Hideout production.


On a related note: I lean towards Social Media giving a disproportionate voice to those who feel that way. If Discovery were actually as hated as those YouTubers make it out to be, evidence of that should be seeping through into here. The Disco Forum should be a total War Zone complete with five moderators, threads being closed left and right, and infractions being handed out like candy. That's what it should look like. Yet it doesn't.

That ties in to what I said before about evolving media giving new platforms to people like that. 15-20 years ago, those hardcore haters would've been posting here and creating the kind of chaos you're talking about (although they still would've been a small cadre of bullies drowning out everyone else and pretending to represent the majority), but these days they take it to YouTube where they can monetize their ranting.
 
Probably Social Media. It seems like they have roughly the same disdain for the Picard Series as they do for Discovery. I agree with something @Vger23 said elsewhere that they might end up hating the Picard Series even more because they'll perceive it as taking direct aim at TNG: which is the series most of them grew up with, not TOS. With DSC, the reaction is "What have they done to Star Trek?!" With the Picard Series, it'll be different. It'll be "What have they done to my Star Trek?!"

Absolutely. I've already run across at least Angry Fan who insists that "the fans" are much more emotionally invested in Picard than that old "dated" TOS show (speak for yourself, youngster) and that therefore the Picard series is likely to be much more upsetting than DISCO because it's messing with "the Trek we all grew up on," etc.

Meanwhile, in larger sense, this whole thing is bigger than Star Trek prequels or even Star Trek. These sort of territorial, often generational battles can be found in every fandom these days: Star Wars, Doctor Who, Planet of the Apes, Godzilla, etc. I remember one recent Saturday evening when it seemed like everywhere I went on the internet I kept bumping into some variation of "Not My Star Trek," "Not My Ninja Turtles," "Not My Mary Poppins," etc. It was actually kinda depressing.

When did fandom get so obsessed with protecting the sacred purity of their version of some beloved property? I can't help thinking that the fandom would be a happier place if we just get over the idea of what Star Trek (or whatever) "should" be and got back to watching this stuff for fun, you know?

Oh, another contributing factor here is the way sci-fi stuff has gone mainstream and rather than celebrating that fact, some lifelong fans are having trouble coping with the reality that this stuff is not our own private clubhouse anymore (as if it ever was). So you get this mania about "true fans" and "real Trek" and other forms of gatekeeping, which often seem to be about asserting "ownership" of the property.

"The Trek I grew up on is the only real Trek," etc. It's just generational chauvinism, in a way.
 
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