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When did canon become such a hot-button issue?

I had a feeling you'd twist my words in order to ignore my point. Too bad you're not willing to think and listen. I'm clearly wasting my time here.

Oh, I did. I just disagree. You kinda' seem to make "criticism" of a creative work itself a punishable offense. That's just not how it works. The creators can fully intentional chose a certain approach for their work, in this case how they treat previous backstory and continuity. And everybody else is free to tell them that their approach sucked.
 
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Okay, not that the back and forth isn't absolutely riveting....

Is there really any need to continue this?
 
The (visual) continuity discussion is really only a symptom of the need to riff on a familiar setting for a minimum audience, rather than jump forward immediately, risk everything and sweep the past under the rug as TNG had. The bigger question is whether Star Trek should be defined by a set of legacy characters or the “virtual anthology” concept of boldly going somewhere with a replacable crew.
 
Well going by TNG, it wasn't Gene Roddenberry's intention for Star Trek to be defined by a set of legacy characters.

It also wasn't his intention for it to be defined in only one narrow way forever. Sure, he wanted it to be innovated with and reimagined and expanded, but it's contradictory to say that innovating requires forbidding any particular approach. A fresh new take on established characters can be just as innovative as the creation of new characters.

Different creative approaches are not enemies to each other. They're just different options for people with different tastes. The more options you offer, the bigger the audience you can attract and satisfy. That's why restaurants offer more than one menu item.
 
Yes, obviously, in every way that matters -- new stories, new cast, new look, new attitude.

The backstory builds off of the old TV shows and movies, one new story was a partial remake of a previous movie, they did bring back an old cast member to pass the torch, one went back to the ENT TV show to design a ship from that era, and all the shows have had a different attitude in one way or another.

The in-universe continuity ties are just a handwave to make a massive reinterpretation palatable to old-guard fans.

Speaking for myself, I would have found it more palatable had it just been a hard reboot. There is merit to that and to taking into account that that was the primary interest. But, at the end of the day, the Powers That Be did not and chose to tie it into the pre-existing continuity, adding enough DNA to make it more then just a handwave. While that would be separate from whether the movies work as stories in and of themselves, it is more then fair to assess how well they fit into the continuity that the filmmakers chose to put them in.

In real-world terms, looking at it as an exercise in storytelling and marketing, the express intent was to make Star Trek new, to relaunch the film franchise in a fresh way that would attract a fresh young audience. You can't make a profit by catering solely to old fans, since that's a population that's bound to dwindle over time. You have to periodically start over and appeal to new audiences, people who never saw the old version. So when you do that, there's no requirement to make it continuous with what came before, because it won't matter either way to the new audience. That's an option, but it's a secondary consideration. As I keep saying, continuity is not the sole purpose of fiction or the sole standard for judging fiction.

Fair enough. Kinda funny, though, that the "remake" branch of the franchise died after three movies (just when they'd cracked the code, IMHO) and the DSC TV show, which returned to the main continuity of the franchise, has been successful enough to start work on more projects like it. I'm sure it's not this simple, but on paper, it almost seems like going with the old is working out here more.

And there are different kinds of continuity. Clearly the Marvel Cinematic Universe and the Arrowverse are not in the same continuity as the comics they're based on, but they've been very good at respecting and adapting the characters and storylines and worldbuilding elements of their sources, using past continuity as a starting point and a font to draw from rather than being confined by it.

Sure, but there is a difference between a hard reboot and a continuation of something. It's fair to judge how the media in question fares depending on the model it follows.

Continuity of ideas, characters, and themes is more important to fiction than the literalistic continuity of events and chronology. You don't have to set your story in the same "universe" as an earlier one in order to be faithful and respectful to its essence.

All about the intent, and believe it or not, I do get it; I like a lot of different Spider-Man stuff, even if most of it doesn't fit together in terms of canon and all that.

The (visual) continuity discussion is really only a symptom of the need to riff on a familiar setting for a minimum audience, rather than jump forward immediately, risk everything and sweep the past under the rug as TNG had.

Eh, I think the question of visual consistency is a fair one, given how it factors into suspension of disbelief. However, I do think it's something that seems to have different levels of opinion, from whether it should all just be considered artistic license or be given some stock. Even in the case of the latter, there are different standards in terms of what someone would find acceptable leeway and what breaks the suspension of disbelief. Personally, I do believe that visual continuity is part of the canon with this franchise, so logical "in-universe" reasons for changes are appreciated. On the other hand, I have found that I'm willing to overlook more then other people (the guy who does that "Ex Astra Scientia" fan site seems to be a lot more bothered by the DSC changes then I was).

The bigger question is whether Star Trek should be defined by a set of legacy characters or the “virtual anthology” concept of boldly going somewhere with a replacable crew.

I don't get it.
 
You know, I'm reading some of this and I think sometimes we need to take a step back and realize, it's just entertainment. Great entertainment to be sure. I have tons of things I'm interested and Star Trek is at the top of my list. In fact, it's the only thing I really comment on (well, other than Notre Dame football and basketball....but that's another blog site ;) ). And I love debating it endlessly. But even I need to step away from time to time.

Canon. It's not something I think a lot about. Continuity, yes. And production design continuity....well sometimes that bothers me more than storyline continuity. I guess because the visuals are the most obvious. I've made my complaints about Discovery's production designs and won't bore people with bringing them up again (in fact, I had a large post detailing that but decided to edit it out because I realized it's all stuff I've said ad nauseum before).

But canon? I imagine a lot of that has to do with the fact that I read the novels, and many times include those additional stories in my own 'personal' Star Trek continuum....at least until they are contradicted by canon (I guess that's probably the only time I think about canon). I guess when it comes to the relaunches if the nu-TNG show contradicts the currently novel continuity I'll probably treat them as an 'alternate' universe. And I'm fine with that, the only thing that sort of bums me out in that instance is they will likely cease doing stories in the relaunches at that point. Though I guess they would eventually stop at some point anyway (it also saddens me that due to the plethora of shows coming out, and knowing Pocketbooks will probably want to capitalize on that by having novels based on those shows there probably will no longer be any room for DS9, Voyager and Enterprise novels).

But maybe sometimes some of us just need to relax and enjoy the ride. And even if some don't. If they just can't get on board with the current shows, there's still a lot of Star Trek out there. None of that is going away. I've had some issues when it comes to Discovery, but not so much thus far that I haven't enjoyed the series in other ways. Not enough to sign up for All Access (but in fairness that's nothing to do with continuity--just my lack of the appropriate technology to make it worth my while and I still have....gasp....cable and refuse to pay for another subscription service) so I just have to wait for it on Blu-Ray.
 
But maybe sometimes some of us just need to relax and enjoy the ride.

Yup. This is supposed to be entertainment. I take continuity seriously, but (and I'm speaking as a reader/viewer of other fiction here, not as a creator of my own) if it gets to the point that my concern for continuity gets in the way of enjoying the story, I just try to shrug it off, to accept that it's just a made-up story and it doesn't have to be utterly perfect to be satisfying.
 
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But the different creative approaches are not equivalent “menu items”. One tends to be rooted in giving the audience what they want and certain producers/fans a chance to play in a sandbox. The other is arrogant, in the sense that you’re spilling as much of the sand from the box as possible and trying to improve the franchise regardless of what came before (one could argue that Roddenberry had lost control of the TOS era anyway, but his approach did pay off in the end, when TNG became more than competitive).

With both the Abramsverse and DSC riffing on the 2250s, a Picard show in the works and a Section 31 series being talked about, I can only hope that DSC S3 will use the time jump to carve out its own niche in the legacy. As noted, it’s not that a reimagined continuity is the end of the world — I can always call it “Discovery universe” — it’s that I’m not interested in Star Trek turning into Batman, with certain beats and characters that just have to be revisited or it’s not Star Trek. The unwritten rule that you had to go forward at least prevented productions from getting stuck in the good-old.
 
I know its just niche, but I have to say, Star Trek Continues reinvigorated me in the franchise more then ENT and the reboot movies put together - I had stopped watching mid Voyager. For me, the good-old was the draw. I'm now up to date on Discovery, and just started Enterprise. (I still don't plan on revisiting the 24th.)
 
But how do you reconcile the good-old with boldly going where no one has gone before? TOS was very much against it, with characters running into elements of their past only to face reality and saddle up in the end.
 
But the different creative approaches are not equivalent “menu items”. One tends to be rooted in giving the audience what they want and certain producers/fans a chance to play in a sandbox. The other is arrogant, in the sense that you’re spilling as much of the sand from the box as possible and trying to improve the franchise regardless of what came before (one could argue that Roddenberry had lost control of the TOS era anyway, but his approach did pay off in the end, when TNG became more than competitive).

The reason that statement is nonsense is that you're assuming "the audience" is a monolithic entity that only wants one thing (i.e. what you personally want). That's not how human beings work. Different people like different things. Any sensible person who wants to attract a large audience will cater to different tastes. Some restaurants only serve one category of cuisine, but others offer a wider selection for diners with different tastes, which is why you can go to a restaurant where your friends order shrimp scampi and chicken tikka masala while you get a burger and fries. If you started screaming to the management of that restaurant that they were being arrogant and incompetent by not requiring everyone to eat burgers and fries, you would not find a lot of sympathy for that position from the other diners.

For that matter, even one person can like different things. I like a (veggie) burger and fries sometimes, but I also like chicken tikka masala (though I can't stand shrimp). I like fictional universes that have tight internal continuity, but I also like fictional universes that can reinvent themselves in different, parallel ways. Having a variety of options is good, both for the audience as a whole and for the individual. You just have to be willing to try it. I never thought I'd like Indian food until I discovered how much I like tikka masala. I enjoy a bunch of foods now that I adamantly refused to try as a child. You miss a lot if you refuse to try new things.
 
I never thought I'd like Indian food until I discovered how much I like tikka masala.

This is probably the most important thing said in this entire thread.

I love tikka masala. Especially lamb tikka masala.

This just reminds me how art, like Indian food, is a subjective experience. In the end we all like what we like, and no amount of "logic" is going to make any difference.

I know brussels sprouts are good for me. It makes no difference. I think they taste like absolute crap. I hate them. And I could have been long conversation with someone about all the different ways it can be prepared, how many vitamins are in them, how they complement this dish or that dish...I don't care. I hate them.

This is why, to be perfectly honest, I get so frustrated with conversations like this one. There's no objective standard, just many different opinions, none more valid than the other. But people get angry, insult each other, send me notifications...and at the end of the day nothing changes.

And then we do it all again. Money? Military? _____ is not real Star Trek? Gene's Vision? Not my canon?

Round and round we go.

Here ends the Monday Morning Mod Rant.

Carry on. :)
 
I wouldn’t exactly compare my request to burger and fries (which I do like, of course) when I’m proposing the equivalent of as-yet unnamed, uncategorized food under the Star Trek label. I’m saying that deep down it’s not about continuity, but rather this issue of inviting producers to riff on the work of the greats (and so fulfil their childhood dreams, etc.), vs inviting them to keep going forward without reverence, just as Roddenberry, his former colleagues and the next iteration of staff did on TNG.

By giving an audience what they want I mean their notion of bringing back something that exists (and therefore can be requested by someone at least), as opposed to ignoring any sense of what someone may want and creating the next set of famous characters and concepts. There are different foods, but some are healthier or more innovative than others. Are we saying it’s just as OK that ever since ENT S4, Star Trek has been in a phase where producers have needed a tight legacy framework to twist upon? If that is the equivalent of burger and fries, can we also have Star Trek without the safety net of earlier successes?
 
Yep, one thing I learned is Star Trek fans come in all styles. Esp. here on trekbbs I've seen all angles. Old school, new school, pro-continuity, anti-continuity, some that want the throw the whole thing away and start over, some that any change is apostacy. In reality the show runners are going to always tick someone off no matter what they do....sort of their own little Kobayashi Maru. Someone is going to get upset.

Ultimately the goal of CBS is to make money by having popular shows that people watch. They are going to try to make a show that draws in the most people. It's as simple as that. If a lot of people are watching a show then it's considered a success.

It doesn't matter a whole lot what we say. The only way it makes a difference is if a lot of people don't watch it. But in that case our opinions still probably don't matter a whole lot because when shows don't do well they get cancelled. And let's face it, our opinions are all over the place. It'd probably be fruitless to correct a course on a failing show by trying to get some consensus from fans. Why, because we are old school, new school, pro-continuity, anti-continuity, etc. etc.
 
This is probably the most important thing said in this entire thread.

I love tikka masala. Especially lamb tikka masala.

What surprised me about it the first time was how familiar it tasted. I eventually realized that what it reminded me of was Cincinnati chili. I guess it's mainly that they both have chili powder and a mix of other spices in them.


I know brussels sprouts are good for me. It makes no difference. I think they taste like absolute crap. I hate them. And I could have been long conversation with someone about all the different ways it can be prepared, how many vitamins are in them, how they complement this dish or that dish...I don't care. I hate them.

As it happens, I once had some very good brussels sprouts, in a Thanksgiving dinner prepared by the same family friend who introduced me to tikka masala some years later. But when I tried some storebought brussels sprouts later on, they were awful. I gather they're something that has to be prepared in just the right way in order to taste good.


I wouldn’t exactly compare my request to burger and fries (which I do like, of course) when I’m proposing the equivalent of as-yet unnamed, uncategorized food under the Star Trek label. I’m saying that deep down it’s not about continuity, but rather this issue of inviting producers to riff on the work of the greats (and so fulfil their childhood dreams, etc.), vs inviting them to keep going forward without reverence, just as Roddenberry, his former colleagues and the next iteration of staff did on TNG.

You're still mistaking the producers' choice to do something different from what you want for doing something objectively wrong, and that is pure egotism.
 
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