Whats wrong with Engineering in the modern Era? and how to fix it?

[valkyrie013]

So, Starting with TOS, Engineering has been a major setting for Trek series.
The TOS Engineering was a large set, with a quite open area that changed ocasionally, at the end having the dilithium assembly put in the middle.
In the movies, and the rest of the series it became a bit of a smaller area, the Enterprise E has a bit of a larger 2-3 story affair.
Then in 2009, the Brewification happened, and the JJ Enterprise had the Brewery, and a VERY large engineering section with almost no decks or supports that you would expect ina starship. It got a bit better in STiD with the Lazer ignition thingy standing in for the Warp Core.
In Discovery we have the Spore area, with is an offshoot of engineer, not engineering itself, but used in the series as an Engineering stand in. Then with the Enterprise we had what seems to be that CGI mess of a warp core area.
And I won't get started on the Wonka-Vator ness of the Turbolifts and the open sections in Discovery and Enterprise (Ugh)
Last I heard is that there going to build a "Volume" system in Toronto that is similar to the "holodeck/volume" that they use for Mandolorian. This opens up some interesting locals for planets, but would also open up areas of the ship that maybe to expensive to build on a TV budget.
So I guess the question is, with Strange New Worlds coming soon, What would you like to see as an engineering section? Could it be redressed as the Discovery Engineering section?
I would like to see a larger area, maybe 2-3 decks that is similar to the Tos section.
Could the Volume be used to create a better CGI Engineering section ??

Just looking for thoughts on what you'd like to see for an engineering area, maybe even to the whole engineering section/hull?

 

[valkyrie013]

https://trekmovie.com/2020/10/19/st...-to-create-virtual-sets-like-the-mandalorian/
Article on it going to toronto..

Also! upon reading that some small studio is building one in... Tampa Florida..

 

[RichT]

We saw the Enterprise's engineering in "Ask Not", one of the Short Treks episodes:

It looks like a cross between the massive open industrial spaces of the Abramsverse Enterprise and the vertical warp core of The Motion Picture.

I've always favoured the idea of the warp core being an enormous piece of equipment filling a significant volume of the ship, rather than a single small component; or at the very least, that a ship should have multiple warp cores. I always found it impossible to believe that the dinky warp core of the Enterprise-D was able to provide enough plasma to fill two massive nacelles, and having a single warp core is surely a massively vulnerable single point of failure.

I want to see a warp core design that's like the enormous "pipe cathedral" of TOS, but where each of the vertical structures is what we think of today as a TNG/DS9/VOY-style vertical warp core – multiple reaction chambers feeding one massive plasma distribution system connected to the nacelles and powering the rest of the ship.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Loved main engineering on the NX-01 - had an industrial feel to it with actual levels to pull and metal grating etc. Voyager had a great main engineering set as well.

 

[Shawnster]

The problem is the storytelling format. Both DISCO and PIC are episodic (or whatever). There is a season-long story to tell and, unless that season long story arc depends on scenes in engineering, we're not going to see the engineering scenes that we saw in TOS and TNG. Likewise,, a lot of backstory is invested in the spore drive on DISCO. It was a major McGuffin for season 1 and again in season 3. Anything engineering related that affects the plot is most likely going to involve the spore drive.

Heck, I don't even think we know who the Chief Engineer is on Discovery, nor do we know (much) about the Chief Medical Officer. The story hasn't needed to focus on these positions. Until the story needs to include the Chief Engineer, CMO, or Main Engineering, they're going to continue as they have.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Isn't Doctor Pollard the CMO on Discovery?

 

[1001001]

Isn't Doctor Pollard the CMO on Discovery?

I don't think it's ever been stated on-screen who the CMO is.

We know that Culber is not. (Choose Your Pain).

 

[fireproof78]

We saw the Enterprise's engineering in "Ask Not", one of the Short Treks episodes:

Personally, this is probably the closest to what I would want. I didn't mind the engineering in ST 09 or ID so I wouldn't mind a hybrid between the two, with that central hub directing the power flow, while other nodes are responsible for distribution to and from the nacelles.

 

[The Wormhole]

Isn't Doctor Pollard the CMO on Discovery?

No. Why does everyone keep thinking that? Pollard is the lowest ranking medical officer seen on Disco, her rank being Lt JG. The other medical officers we know the ranks of are Culber, a Lt Commander and the guy looking after the space whale, a full Commander.

 

[Qonundrum]

So, Starting with TOS, Engineering has been a major setting for Trek series.
The TOS Engineering was a large set, with a quite open area that changed ocasionally, at the end having the dilithium assembly put in the middle.

For a comparatively low budget, TOS did wonders with its various set pieces. The huge tumbler pipe things not seen since season 1 (from "Court Martial" and others) helped as much as the forced perspective background tubes and numerous wall panels. Especially as there was no "warp core" talked about at the time, not until TMP... and majestic it was...

In the movies, and the rest of the series it became a bit of a smaller area, the Enterprise E has a bit of a larger 2-3 story affair.

TNG's era was the worst. One big plastic prop with flashing CCFL lights in the middle fo the TV version. Its movie edition was even more banal plastic with two different colors of flashing CCFL lights. TOS' set with the mirror and diffracting plastic panels gave something that gave an aura of authenticity - something VOY would return to (and a shame ST V and VI didn't).

Then in 2009, the Brewification happened, and the JJ Enterprise had the Brewery, and a VERY large engineering section with almost no decks or supports that you would expect ina starship. It got a bit better in STiD with the Lazer ignition thingy standing in for the Warp Core.

It was an inexpensive means to suggest something big and a nuclear power plant to film in would be out of the question. The movie having an uninspired script is far worse than redressing a beer factory.

But, yeah, I vaguely recall the 2009-present movie era having oversized engineering areas. STID being star wars-like. There's "big screen" epic, and then there's "over the top, ridiculous" big that just looks laughably bad that not even a good script can distract from (even STVI couldn't iron out the fact they just reused TNG engine room sets despite having a nearly top notch script). The moment the background musak uses a choir of stoned banshee voices you know it's going to be laughably bad... never mind any human having the strength to realign via merely kicking an assembly that has to be precisely aligned and to deal with the forces of plasma and all...

TMP still did have the best look of the bunch while feeling the most tangibly authentic...

In Discovery we have the Spore area, with is an offshoot of engineer, not engineering itself, but used in the series as an Engineering stand in. Then with the Enterprise we had what seems to be that CGI mess of a warp core area.
And I won't get started on the Wonka-Vator ness of the Turbolifts and the open sections in Discovery and Enterprise (Ugh)
Last I heard is that there going to build a "Volume" system in Toronto that is similar to the "holodeck/volume" that they use for Mandolorian. This opens up some interesting locals for planets, but would also open up areas of the ship that maybe to expensive to build on a TV budget.
So I guess the question is, with Strange New Worlds coming soon, What would you like to see as an engineering section? Could it be redressed as the Discovery Engineering section?
I would like to see a larger area, maybe 2-3 decks that is similar to the Tos section.
Could the Volume be used to create a better CGI Engineering section ??

Just looking for thoughts on what you'd like to see for an engineering area, maybe even to the whole engineering section/hull?

Modern day TV now has an expectation of "big". Even in TNG from 1987 they had 2 decks for Engineering shown, ditto for Voyager (which looked decidedly more cramped). Not to mention TOS used two decks, with ladders in the fore view, as well. But does the set need to be the size of an abandoned shopping mall or beer factory where, if you listen hard enough, you can hear the craft worker belch up the sample just taste-tested? Good grief, no. Just make it look and feel authentic. Even TNG managed that by season 2 when they got enough money to not only finish the Engineering set with more consoles for Geordi to touch, they also gave him a chair with the little roly-poly wheels on it. The inertial dampers must work overtime on that thing, hehe...

But if they could stay away from overt asinine sub-campiness of integrating an amusement park roller coaster inside the bowels of the ship as a turbolift system that nobody's going to take seriously and justly so, that'd be a start... especially as Batman 66 has been off the air for several decades and there's no need to one-up it?

 

[F. King Daniel]

I loved engineering in ST'09 and Into Darkness. The brewery was enormous, and the NIF chamber as the central core itself looked great, but of course location shooting is impractical for a series and impossible with Covid. And most of the die-hards hated it, even though each and every one of them were wrong.

Maybe (budget allowing) they'll do something like Star Trek Beyond? A corridor with some consoles and a CGI not-quite brewery we never actually ever explore?

 

[fireproof78]

especially as Batman 66 has been off the air for several decades and there's no need to one-up it?

Oh, I would love for someone to try. That would be amazing!

And most of the die-hards hated it, even though each and every one of them were wrong.

Indeed.

 

[Shawnster]

Isn't Doctor Pollard the CMO on Discovery?

And if so, what do we know about Doctor Pollard? Not that much.

That's not the point though. Or maybe it illustrates my point. Since no episode has required the fleshing out of the CMO, we don't know much of anything about the CMO. Modern Trek only features what is necessary for the overall season plot. Kinda like the story behind the Galileo shuttlecraft or the Engineering set itself from TOS/TNG. There wasn't enough budget for a shuttle until an episode required a shuttle set. Gene Roddenberry is oft quoted as saying he intentionally wrote the beginning of "Encounter at Farpoint" specifically so they would have the budget necessary to build an engineering set.

So, since no episodes have required DISCO to have a main engineering, we haven't seen main engineering.

 

[Tim Thomason]

No. Why does everyone keep thinking that? Pollard is the lowest ranking medical officer seen on Disco, her rank being Lt JG. The other medical officers we know the ranks of are Culber, a Lt Commander and the guy looking after the space whale, a full Commander.

She might be. It's a ship of 80 (now) to 180 (S1 & 2) crew, so a Lt j.g. might be enough to run the medical department. DS9 had about 300 residents in the early seasons (probably many more as it went on), and the CMO was a Lt j.g. straight out of the Academy.

The one issue, of course, is rank. If the CMO is a Lt. j.g., then why do we see one Commander (METMTSMGM) and a Lieutenant Commander (Culber) working on her staff? The answer is likely specialties. If the Commander was a specialist in xenobiology, or something, he might not be directly under her. Culber, of course, works in sickbay, and at one point assists the CMO in a surgical operation. But, we don't know his exact title or position. Could Pollard be in charge of the medical administration onboard the ship, but Culber just be the chief of surgery? Could he have transferred from a higher position on another ship to be with his husband on the front lines of the War, despite his rank?

Maybe. I think the medical staff might not pay as much heed to rank as the other departments (specifically security and command), as they likely take into account experience and talent outside of Starfleet.

 

[Angry Fanboy]

No. Why does everyone keep thinking that? Pollard is the lowest ranking medical officer seen on Disco, her rank being Lt JG.

You must really hate Chief O'Brien ordering ensigns and lieutenants around as Chief of Operations then eh?

 

[RichT]

Pollard is the lowest ranking medical officer seen on Disco, her rank being Lt JG.

Discovery's first officer is an ensign, what's your point?

 

[Timo]

I don't think it's ever been stated on-screen who the CMO is.

We know that Culber is not. (Choose Your Pain).

More probably, Culber was not. Currently he's the highest-ranking whitecoat aboard, and he handles pretty much all the medical cases anyway. Back in S1, we were supposed to think that he in practice was Stamets' personal physician, in a setup Lorca used for compromising Stamets' care; all the medicine we saw there was related to spore ops anyway, and the rest of the medicine that we heard of was handled by others, including the unseen CMO. I

That excuse is gone now, and was in S2 already. But there were no references to some non-Culber character being the CMO; first he was dead, then there was an ongoing emergency where paranoia prevented crew rotation (which might have involved picking up a CMO from Vulcan), and then S3 happened.

The CEO is a different matter: every season has had dialogue making it painfully clear that the CMO is invisible. In S1, he or she wasn't needed, since the ship ran smoothly save for the spore drive. In S2, there would have been crew overflow from Pike's own ship, which provided the Chief of Security explicitly - but the very highest-ranking engineer aboard, Reno, explicitly wasn't the CEO.

At the S2/S3 transition, many people died or chose to remain behind, so it's possible to play pretend in so many ways again. Stamets is the de facto boss, commanding his superior officer Reno (who sorta ignores that, but has no command authority herself).We're also still waiting for references to a CEO, present or absent.

With this much going on, DSC is probably the most engineering-heavy Trek show ever (and certainly has the most engineering characters). One of the ship's two engine rooms is the very center of most action, too. But it's okay that this is a TOS-compact space where everything interesting is behind hatches, since it is a TOS era piece of, well, engineering. The brewery parts of it are probably so dangerous that only the DOTs work there, just like presumably in TOS... And in Abramsverse, where only cadets and stowaways frequent those parts.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Angry Fanboy]

Stamets was identified by a computer display recently as Chief Engineer, which wouldn't appear to be the case but if we apply the 'it appeared on screen' rule then I guess that's what he is.

I don't personally have an issue with Culber and Pollard being joint CMOs - not everything requires a single person to be sat at the top of the pyramid.

I guess this could apply to engineering as well - Stamets is chief engineer for Spore Drive related things and another person is in charge of the rest.

 

[Timo]

It would be fun for somebody to be in charge, yes. But Stamets is basically the only one among the many engineers with a desire to give orders, and he isn't the most hierarchy-conscious type.

As for identifying Stamets as CEO, that happened way back in "Choose Your Pain". This was the season during which the real CEO was merely implicitly absent, not explicitly stated not to be any of the main characters. For all we know, Stamets did enjoy a brief stint as the very boss of all things engineering - Lorca might have chosen to banish all "non-essential" personnel from the ship after the spore breakthrough, leaving only the weird and gullible scientists and a minimalist bridge team to run the everyday ops, and thus making it possible to pervert the ship to his own designs. (This would also explain what happened to the Black Badges: they were there to keep the various science teams separated, and once everybody but the spore people went out of the airlock, the S31 guards also departed, formally no doubt at the orders of Lorca's lover and top S31 Admiral...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Stamets was identified by a computer display recently as Chief Engineer, which wouldn't appear to be the case but if we apply the 'it appeared on screen' rule then I guess that's what he is.

After that episode aired, the producers jumped all over themselves on Twitter declaring that was a mistake. But even if you want to adhere only to that which was on screen in the show, then in the second season, Reno tells Stamets that she's "been ordered by the chief engineer" to assist him with the spore drive, which makes it clear in onscreen canon that Stamets is not indeed the chief engineer.