What's up with some DS9 fanboys' attitude?

[Nacluv]

Even though my posts most certainly will not give that impression, as I tend to appear to emit a lot of criticism for the series, I have always liked DS9 very much. It's my 3rd or 2nd favorite series. There's of course a large jump between the 1st and the 2nd & 3rd and even bigger when it comes to the rest.

What sometimes causes me to seem to be opposing the series is the attitude and views I've experienced from some (or many) of its more bullheaded fanboys.

Like I said, I have always liked the show, but I'm aware that it might appear that I sometimes appear to be denigrating the show, but actually it has nothing to do with criticising but merely defending the other series from the sometimes harsh, unnuanced and eventually baseless criticism it receives from people who only like DS9 and considers everything else to be flies in comparison.

Some are simply biased, some are obtuse and some are just astoundingly ignorant.

One of the most fundamental elements in those attitutdes is its acclaimed uniqueness. I'm not saying that it isn't very different to TNG, different to TOS. I'm simply asserting that the aberrations tend to be aggrandized.

What consternates me the most about the more stubborn DS9:ers is that when they discuss the other shows and how bad they are to DS9, it's very easy to assume that they have not even seen the other shows or perhaps could not comprehend them. I even read an article once about how DS9 was underrated and misunderstood that stated that Odo was the first character to convey a real outsider perspective in Star Trek since "unlike Spock and Data, Odo was quite content to not be a human and sometimes made a good point when rejecting irrational or normative human values". Is this cretinism in agglutination with indoctrination? Everyone knows that Spock rejected human values EVEN more than Odo, if it was much more or little more doesn't matter, it was definitely more.

With stubbornness, as I've mentioned several times, I'm referring to the phenomenon of exaggerating and elevating the differences but more importantly; to flimsily make claims such as (paraphrased summary) "DS9 was good because it ignored Gene Roddenberry's utopian society vision and non-conflict approach, it was more realistic because it prestened the existence of consequences to actions". So in TOS and TNG, there was no conflicts between staff or with other cultures because one could avoid it simply because everyone could be dealt with by simply making easy compromises?

I believe I lost my thread somewhere, but I'll come back and elaborate on both what I've written, and that which I forgot in the process.

Excuse me, but I find it rather repugnant to read about fanboys who are so delusional that they actually believe their own statements about how "DS9 was a complete 180 to the utopian version of TNG".

 

[Ryva Brall]

I cringe at the very word "fanboy". The people who use that word to describe themselves are almost always blindly loyal fanatics who think everyone who disagrees with them is an illogical, sub-human idiot. I love DS9, but I don't live to tear apart everyone who doesn't think it's the greatest thing in the history of mankind. Needless to say, I agree with everything you said.

I'd like to tell all fanboys, not just the DS9 ones, to -- in the words of the esteemed Shat -- "Get a life."

 

[Nacluv]

I cringe at the very word "fanboy". The people who use that word to describe themselves are almost always blindly loyal fanatics who think everyone who disagrees with them is an illogical, sub-human idiot. I love DS9, but I don't live to tear apart everyone who doesn't think it's the greatest thing in the history of mankind. Needless to say, I agree with everything you said.

I'd like to tell all fanboys, not just the DS9 ones, to -- in the words of the esteemed Shat -- "Get a life."

Exactly. I do not negate those proposed attributes, I'm simply elucidating that some fans tend to unilaterally put these differences and elements totally out of relativity and context based on personal biases and feelings.

That particular B&W reasoning couldn't really be any more wrong here and it's so incredibly irrational. And I consider every person I know to be very irrational so when I use the adverb incredibly, it's meaning has a lot of weight.

 

[R. Star]

Yeah, this isn't behavior unique to just DS9. Or Star Trek. There simply are some people that take things too far. They assume that their opinions are fact and anyone who thinks differently has something wrong with them.

DS9's great. I think it's the best of Star Trek. If you don't, that's your privilege. If you want to argue about it, shall we debate whose favorite color is superior?

 

[Nacluv]

That's a long post just to complain about the opinions of other people. Maybe just don't worry about it, and avoid pejoratively calling them fanboys? ...and cretins for that matter. Be happy and live longer.

You see, it's not really about their personal opinions of DS9. It's about spreading disinformation about the other shows based on those biases.

I don't mind people that think DS9 is the best of Trek. I don't reject the elements that are attributed to the show, unless exaggerated and polarized. What I do oppose is people making false claims about the other shows.

 

[Tosk]

My apologies, you must have still been typing when I deleted my message. For the record, I only removed it because I decided I didn't want to "get into it" after all.

 

[Nacluv]

My apologies, you must have still been typing when I deleted my message. For the record, I only removed it because I decided I didn't want to "get into it" after all.

That's understandable.

 

[-Brett-]

What's up with trying to resuscitate a dead issue? It's been years since I've seen anyone behaving in a way that even remotely resembles what you describe.

Pretending for a second that I've travelled back in time five years, the only thing "up" with it is that people are allowed to have opinions and interpretations different from yours.

 

[Nacluv]

Pretending for a second that I've travelled back in time five years, the only thing "up" with it is that people are allowed to have opinions and interpretations different from yours.

You're probably right. I'm probably just confused about the things that I can't understand, such as interpretations of DS9 as the antipode of TNG.

I am perplexed by the people who really seems to believe that DS9 was the only show with character flaws, politics and metaphysics which couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm also rather baffled by mantras such as "DS9 challenged Gene Roddenberry's utopian vision and the characters were not perfect".

They just go on and on about how DS9, unlike TOS & TNG, showed that the universe wasn't a paradise and that people actually still were humans who still had the ability to make mistakes.

When those people utter things like that, it makes me doubt that they really have seen the predecessors to DS9.

I simply disapprove of diminishing TOS & TNG just to swagger and aggrandize DS9's uniqueness. It was more original than TNG was to TOS, but it was not THAT unique. There were conflicts and idealistically optimal compromises were something hard to achieve even then.

 

[Ryva Brall]

I am perplexed by the people who really seems to believe that DS9 was the only show with character flaws, politics and metaphysics which couldn't be further from the truth.

Dude, don't even try to understand the so-called "logic" of these people. Most of them spend eighteen hours a day embroiled in heated arguments in the "Comments" section of YouTube.

 

[GameOn]

I don't see the point in this thread. It feels like you're just complaining about the conclusions of a handful of people who try to dictate their opinions to others.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think part of it is that they're so used to having to defend DS9 to fans of other series that they've taken to attaching unnecessary hyperbole to their arguments. They're in the mental habit of thinking they're talking to somebody who hates DS9 for equally stupid reasons like "It's not on a ship!"

But really I think TNG and DS9 are more similar to each other than any other two shows. Though DS9 showed more character conflict, the two shows had basically the same ideals and the same story resolution styles. I can't imagine how somebody could love one and hate the other unless they're applying some kind of extreme aesthetic bias.

Then there's the college kids who took economics 101, came to the conclusion that all altruism and optimism was evil and stupid and called it 'Libertarianism', then denigrate TNG on half-understood principle to prove how much smarter they are than everyone.

 

[Phily B]

DS9 fans are a paranoid bunch.

 

[Nacluv]

Dude, don't even try to understand the so-called "logic" of these people. Most of them spend eighteen hours a day embroiled in heated arguments in the "Comments" section of YouTube.

Yes, I've seen those arguments on YouTube. A rational DS9 fan who didn't take part in the "debates" simply observed that it seems some nerds have to hate something in order to love something else, maybe that's true. Star Trek vs. Star Wars hits my mind.

I think part of it is that they're so used to having to defend DS9 to fans of other series that they've taken to attaching unnecessary hyperbole to their arguments. They're in the mental habit of thinking they're talking to somebody who hates DS9 for equally stupid reasons like "It's not on a ship!"

Actually, I believe that "It's not on a ship" is a more probable impetus for the show not being as popular as the others in comparison to the theories of "People didn't like that DS9 challenged Roddenberry's utopia and couldn't bear such character flaws on Star Trek", which is based on facts that are not entirely true.

Again, only in comparison between those two. "It's not on a ship" is far from the only reason and other factors may be bigger in size, but I believe that this is a factor that actually has some grounds in truth.

Let's face it, of all the nerds and common TV watchers that exist, everyone is not particular bright and open-minded.

But really I think TNG and DS9 are more similar to each other than any other two shows. Though DS9 showed more character conflict, the two shows had basically the same ideals and the same story resolution styles. I can't imagine how somebody could love one and hate the other unless they're applying some kind of extreme aesthetic bias.

You're so right when it comes to story and resolution styles. But when it comes to which aspects of the plots are centralized and where the focus lie, I actually think they are more different to each other than both are to TOS.

I see TOS as a parent where TNG inherited one half and DS9 the other. TNG tends to be somewhat more plot-driven than DS9 and DS9 tends to be more character-driven in comparison and I would put TOS inbetween. TOS is also inbetween when it comes to the Technobabble!

Although there are strong similiarities, I believe that DS9 tends to reincarnate and embody different aspects of TOS than TNG does, and that's why even TOS fans (which in my experience generally are more prone to like both or none) can be so divided. TNG is very concentrated on scientific and philosophical concepts, it's basically simply about different ideas and scenarios. While DS9 is not as much about ideas as it is about telling interesting stories and character interactions.

I'm simply speaking from a general perspective based on a total sum of each series. I think they converge at most when it comes to some of it's most fantastique episodes. The Inner Light could easily have been written for DS9 and The Visitor could easily have worked for TNG.

While I do acknowledge these differences, I just find it hard how one could like the other and dislike the other.

I guess I like the idea and plot-oriented style of TNG more and I also often tend to find TNG to be more subtle than DS9, but these things become irrelevant when you account for the totalities, the overall quality. Generally, it's all done in such an optimal way that you no longer care about the differences any more.

 

[Ryva Brall]

Yes, I've seen those arguments on YouTube. A rational DS9 fan who didn't take part in the "debates" simply observed that it seems some nerds have to hate something in order to love something else, maybe that's true. Star Trek vs. Star Wars hits my mind.

I've never understood the whole Star Trek vs. Star Wars thing. Who says you have to hate one to love the other? I personally love both (except for the horrid prequel trilogy). In fact, I would love to see a movie series based on the Old Republic era.

As long as George Lucas wasn't allowed anywhere near it.

 

[R. Star]

Well ST vs SW has produced some amusing video edits but that's about as far as my interest in it stretches. Star Trek for the most part got better when Roddenberry wasn't in the loop anymore, maybe the same will be true for Star Wars and Lucas.

 

[Dale Sams]

My only input would be on "Spock rejected human values more than Odo"

Kirk :"His was the most...human"

Yes Spock would come back with something like "No need to be insulting." But Kirk is essentially correct.

 

[Nacluv]

My only input would be on "Spock rejected human values more than Odo"

Kirk :"His was the most...human"

Yes Spock would come back with something like "No need to be insulting." But Kirk is essentially correct.

Something being human has nothing to do with human values.

In this case, human values itemizes norms of human behavior and needs, specific parameters that typically tends to be associated with our people. Values, social conventions and rituals, our universally normative laws, emotional needs that's generally typical for our race as well as many closely related humanoids.

Spock, like Odo & Data, was meant to serve as an outsider's perspective on the show. Spock and Odo, unlike Data, distanced themselves from the human values they could not understand or/and simply disfavored. As seen in the movies and TNG, Spock eventually accepted that he may be a lot more human than he thought, as Kirk always had proclaimed, but that doesn't mean that he stopped deriding human values and has virtually nothing to do with it at all.

SPOCK: He intrigues me, this Picard.

DATA: In what manner, sir?

SPOCK: Remarkably dispassionate and analytical, for a human. I understand why my father chose to mind-meld with him. There's an almost Vulcan quality to the man.

DATA: Interesting, I had not considered that. And Capt. Picard has been a role model in my quest to be more human.

SPOCK: More human?

DATA: Yes, Ambassador.

SPOCK: Fascinating! You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you've been given by design.

DATA: You are half-human?

SPOCK: Yes.

DATA: Yet you have chosen the Vulcan way of life?

SPOCK: I have.

DATA: In effect, you have abandoned what I have sought all my life.

SPOCK: I believe I have isolated the 29th-cipher access code. I shall attempt to access the Proconsul's files.

DATA: Ambassador Spock, may I ask a personal question?

SPOCK: Please.

DATA: As you examine your life... Do you find you have missed your humanity?

SPOCK: I have no regrets.

DATA: "No regrets"... That is a human expression!

SPOCK: Yes. Fascinating!

Even when he acknowledges himself as a humanoid and half-human, he's still an outsider who don't really fancy the human way of life, their strivings and their approaches to matters and eventually overtly irrational emotions.

 

[davejames]

I agree DS9 had its flaws and probably gets a bit over-praised at times (and it certainly had it's fair number of dud episodes).... but I still think it's safe to say that it had the strongest and most sophisticated storytelling of any of the series. Not to mention the best dialogue.

And it's still head and shoulders above VOY and ENT.

You might like the TOS or TNG characters or setting more (and I could easily see how that could be, as a huge fan of them myself), but when it comes to the stories I don't think there can be any doubt which show was the strongest and best.

 

[dub]

I don't think the DS9 fanboys hold a candle to the TOS fanpas (TOS = The Original Snobs). Only kidding. But seriously, give me a break! There are elitists, haters and trolls in every camp. It's definitely not unique to DS9.