What's the relationship between the black fleet and sto-vo-kor?

[JD]

Voyager had an advantage in B'Elanna being a part of the crew, meaning 'our heroes,' plus the episodic nature of the series. With Discovery being more serialized and centered primarily around Michael, I doubt Discovery's got the room for a high concept 'Klingon heaven' episode.

We are going to continue to get a lot more Klingons as the season goes on, from the way they've talked in the promotional stuff it sounds like Voq, L'Rell, and Kol are going to be a fairly significant part of the story. I'm pretty sure if there are ways they could work in the Black Fleet they'll do it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Voyager actually had souls transported on physical Age of Sail ships in B'elenna's afterlife vision. Perhaps we're looking too hard at this and not going for an Occam's Razor description.

There's a fleet of ships in Sto'vo'kor.

 

[Charles Phipps]

All I know is, for the first time in a long time, an alien species DOESN'T have all their members acting the same way. Different ideology within one alien species??? Trekkies can't handle non-cookie-cutter way of thinking.....

And yes, I understand that's a dickmove on my behalf. But really, I can't understand how fans have been complaining about the one-dimensionality of Klingons ever since TNG. And now that a new way of thinking and behaving has been introduced, those same fans are blowing a fuse because their precious canon has been adjusted.....

I like Klingon culture and would hate to mutilate it.

 

[JD]

Voyager actually had souls transported on physical Age of Sail ships in B'elenna's afterlife vision. Perhaps we're looking too hard at this and not going for an Occam's Razor description.

There's a fleet of ships in Sto'vo'kor.

I thought about that, but then I was thinking they might have already identified them as something else in the episode.

 

[Kor]

Perhaps T'Kuvma and co. practice some kind of syncretic religion, which blends the belief system that involves Sto-vo-kor and the dead body being considered an empty shell, with another belief system in which fallen Klingons join the Black Fleet and dead bodies are reverently interred in elaborate coffins. And at some point, some Klingons practiced mummification, per STIV:TVH.

Perhaps the Klingon afterlife is all one big realm with different areas for different purposes. There is Sto-vo-kor, which is described as having "halls" where great warriors engaged in endless battle. This is akin to Valhalla being within the world of Asgaard.

Gre'thor, the place for dishonorable Klingons, is depicted as a fortress-like structure that is reached by a boat, the Barge of the Dead.

And then there is the Black Fleet. I think this would definitely be a fleet of ocean-going vessels, not starships. Does the fleet operate within the borders of Sto-vo-kor, or does it patrol the waters outside of Sto-vo-kor? According to Memory Beta, some Trek novels combined the concepts of the Black Fleet and Sto-vo-kor (source).

Kor

 

[Christopher]

And then there is the Black Fleet. I think this would definitely be a fleet of ocean-going vessels, not starships.

The Final Reflection pretty clearly depicted it as starships. When the servitor Tirian was asked if he believed in the Black Fleet, he said "My people mostly believe in a next life... though there are not starships in it." There's another part where Vrenn (before he becomes Krenn) thinks "he would have his ship, even if it flew in the Black Fleet."

I'm sure that Klingons in the past, if they believed in a Black Fleet, would've seen it as sailing ships. But it's still an active belief system for the Klingons as a starfaring people, a people who have come to define their martial virtues in terms of starship combat. So why wouldn't they incorporate that into their afterlife, a realm where they could have the same kind of glorious combat forever? The Barge of the Dead would be a surviving metaphor from earlier times, but the Klingons have been in space long enough to have invented new metaphors for the afterlife.

 

[Kor]

The Final Reflection pretty clearly depicted it as starships. When the servitor Tirian was asked if he believed in the Black Fleet, he said "My people mostly believe in a next life... though there are not starships in it." There's another part where Vrenn (before he becomes Krenn) thinks "he would have his ship, even if it flew in the Black Fleet."

I'm sure that Klingons in the past, if they believed in a Black Fleet, would've seen it as sailing ships. But it's still an active belief system for the Klingons as a starfaring people, a people who have come to define their martial virtues in terms of starship combat. So why wouldn't they incorporate that into their afterlife, a realm where they could have the same kind of glorious combat forever? The Barge of the Dead would be a surviving metaphor from earlier times, but the Klingons have been in space long enough to have invented new metaphors for the afterlife.

Good points; it's been a while since I read The Final Reflection.

I suppose it's not too farfetched to think that the afterlife reflects the contemporary world, instead of expecting it to be stuck in some ancient setting. After all, they say that so-and-so "went to the great/big ______ in the sky," based on the person's occupation or favorite pastime, however modern it may be.

Kor

 

[Charles Phipps]

Eh, I imagine most Klingons don't actually pay that much thought to the specifics of how Heaven would manifest.

Some would think of it classical ships, others would update it to starships, and others would believe it would be a metaphor.

 

[Kor]

Of course, all of Klingon culture presented in the novel-within-a-novel "The Final Reflection" could be totally off-base, a fanciful and idealized depiction of a culture that the Federation didn't know much about, since the story was developed from the conjectures and assumptions of a human researcher who apparently had never spent any time among the Klingons himself.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

Of course, all of Klingon culture presented in the novel-within-a-novel "The Final Reflection" could be totally off-base, a fanciful and idealized depiction of a culture that the Federation didn't know much about, since the story was developed from the conjectures and assumptions of a human researcher who apparently had never spent any time among the Klingons himself.

Except that it was supposedly based in part on the author's conversations with the "real-life" (in-universe) figure of Dr. Emanuel Tagore, who provided insights based on his own interactions with the Klingons. And on whatever other cultural research was available. You don't need to have direct experience with something if you're a thorough researcher.