What's the relationship between the black fleet and sto-vo-kor?

[Unimatrix Q]

The black fleet was first invented by John M. Ford as a concept for the Klingon afterlife in The Final Reflection. It was also mentioned sometimes in books of the current novelverse continuity.

Now it has been canonized in the first two episodes of Star Trek Discovery by T'Kuvma talking about it, but he also mentioned Sto-vo-kor.

What is the relationship between the two concepts?

 

[Tosk]

Maybe it's different names for the same thing. (Heaven, afterlife, nirvana, Zion, Elysium, Eden...)

In both, warriors go there after they die to fight worthy enemies for eternity.

 

[Christopher]

I would imagine the Black Fleet operates within Sto-Vo-Kor, for those modern Klingons whose idea of glorious eternal battle is space-based rather than hand-to-hand.

Or maybe its -- gasp! -- a metaphor, so it doesn't have to fit together literally.

 

[Mysterion]

Or perhaps there is more than one religion practiced amongst the Klingons.

 

[Leto_II]

^ Yup, and also perhaps they're two completely differing afterlife-concepts, which would actually be a good thing in worldbuilding-terms, since Star Trek historically trends toward monoculturalism.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Mysterion!

 

[Christopher]

Yup, and also perhaps they're two completely differing afterlife-concepts, which would actually be a good thing in worldbuilding-terms, since Star Trek historically trends toward monoculturalism.

Theoretically, they could be, but the evidence in the episode suggests otherwise. T'Kuvma's followers practiced the exact same "death scream" ritual that Worf and his fellow Klingons followed in "Heart of Glory" -- the only difference being that they preserved the corpse instead of dismissing it as an "empty shell." That suggests that they follow a variant of the same basic religion, rather than a completely distinct one.

 

[Mysterion]

Theoretically, they could be, but the evidence in the episode suggests otherwise. T'Kuvma's followers practiced the exact same "death scream" ritual that Worf and his fellow Klingons followed in "Heart of Glory" -- the only difference being that they preserved the corpse instead of dismissing it as an "empty shell." That suggests that they follow a variant of the same basic religion, rather than a completely distinct one.

Okay so there was a Klingon Martin Luther at some point, maybe. Or it's just an off-shoot sect of some sort. Or the two religions are related in the same way that the Judeo-Christian faiths are here on Earth - same basics roots of the theology,but moved forward in somewhat differing directions and interpretations of the material.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

My first assumption was that the members of the Black Fleet were like, the warrior-ist of warriors; the warrior elite of the afterlife. Those glorious enough in life to be extra glorious in death.

 

[Kemaiku]

Saru's comment that some of the corpse covered hull was thousands of years old means the Black Fleet and this sect go back quite a long way.

Kahless lived about 1,500 years ago, so the bestial houses, this fleet and their practises far outdate him and even potentially anything to do with the Hurq. The Empire is much older here than it's been shown to be before.

 

[Stevil2001]

I seem to recall that Keith's Gorkon novels mentioned the Black Fleet as being in Sto-Vo-Kor.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I wonder what is the philosophical and religious reason for the Klingons to preserve their dead at this point in time and what is the reason for the change in society that the body of the dead don't matter at all for reaching Sto-Vo-Kor? Or is the preservation only neccesary to become a member in the Black Fleet?

 

[Christopher]

I wonder what is the philosophical and religious reason for the Klingons to preserve their dead at this point in time and what is the reason for the change in society that the body of the dead don't matter at all for reaching Sto-Vo-Kor? Or is the preservation only neccesary to become a member in the Black Fleet?

Maybe it's not "the Klingons," just T'Kuvma's particular sect.

Although it's possible that

Spoiler: Battle at the Binary Stars

Georgiou's "hide a bomb in a corpse" plan led the Klingons to decide that retrieving their war dead was a bad idea, so they adjusted their beliefs to justify discarding corpses.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Maybe it's not "the Klingons," just T'Kuvma's particular sect.

Although it's possible that

Spoiler: Battle at the Binary Stars

Georgiou's "hide a bomb in a corpse" plan led the Klingons to decide that retrieving their war dead was a bad idea, so they adjusted their beliefs to justify discarding corpses.

Yes, that could be a reason for this change.

By the way, i would really like to read a novel series written by you or KRAD about the Klingons in the time between Enterprise and Discovery

 

[Mage]

All I know is, for the first time in a long time, an alien species DOESN'T have all their members acting the same way. Different ideology within one alien species??? Trekkies can't handle non-cookie-cutter way of thinking.....

And yes, I understand that's a dickmove on my behalf. But really, I can't understand how fans have been complaining about the one-dimensionality of Klingons ever since TNG. And now that a new way of thinking and behaving has been introduced, those same fans are blowing a fuse because their precious canon has been adjusted.....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

All I can say is, does DSC have the guts to do an episode that takes place IN the Black Fleet?

 

[Jinn]

All I can say is, does DSC have the guts to do an episode that takes place IN the Black Fleet?

Turns out, the Black Fleet is called that because there is no light. The Black Fleet episode will be remembered as the first and only Trek installment without any fan outrcy over Klingon design. The lense flares in the following episodes were greeted even by the most anti-JJ fans as a welcome addition.

 

[JD]

I would imagine the Black Fleet operates within Sto-Vo-Kor, for those modern Klingons whose idea of glorious eternal battle is space-based rather than hand-to-hand.

.

That was my assumption, that the Black Fleet was in Sto-Vo-Kor.

Yes, that could be a reason for this change.

By the way, i would really like to read a novel series written by you or KRAD about the Klingons in the time between Enterprise and Discovery

Depending on how much time the series covers, @Christopher might be able to address some of that in Rise of the Federation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The idea of the Black Fleet sounds really cool. I'd love to see what DSC could do with it.

Heck, if VOY managed to do an episode about Klingon hell, I don't see why DSC couldn't do one about Klingon heaven!

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Voyager had an advantage in B'Elanna being a part of the crew, meaning 'our heroes,' plus the episodic nature of the series. With Discovery being more serialized and centered primarily around Michael, I doubt Discovery's got the room for a high concept 'Klingon heaven' episode.

 

[ATimson]

But really, I can't understand how fans have been complaining about the one-dimensionality of Klingons ever since TNG. And now that a new way of thinking and behaving has been introduced, those same fans are blowing a fuse because their precious canon has been adjusted.....

Well, the obvious answer to that is that they're probably not the same fans.