What's the difference between known space & explored space?

[GabyBee]

I suppose it also depends on how you define "space". Because there's not much to chart about space, per se. What you're really charting are star systems, and their positions in relation to other star systems. The bits in between is just vacuum. Literally. So the parts of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants that have been "observed" and/or "charted" are likely the sum of star systems, nebulae, spatial anomalies, etc. that have been catalogued, rather than an amorphous shape on a two dimensional "map".

 

[Tim Thomason]

Or then a vast amount of data became available to the Federation shortly before "The Dauphin". This need not entail any recent exploration or observation as such - the data could have come in a king-sized memory crystal donated by the Vice Regent of the Ultimate Galactic Empire, that three-planet setup that had inherited it from their glorious forefathers who had stolen it from their inglorious but rich and powerful neighbors right before going extinct (there being some causality involved).

It's possible that information from the Tkon Empire alone may have netted Starfleet the requisite number of charted systems to nearly double their astrophysic knowledge. I would say the Iconians too, but that happened the episode after Dauphin. The first episode of TNG alone implied that they were about to head off into a new unexplored region of space (my assumption being the area toward where the Cardassians/Ferengi/Bajorans all congregate).

While the Enterprise-D itself didn't really head that way (evil Conspiracy aliens put them on meandering inner Federation missions!), others probably did, and they may have gotten a few tidbits from first contacts in that general direction. Assuming that the years before were suffering a notable decline in exploration due to various border conflicts (Cardassian, Tzenkethi, Talarian) and political intrigue or 1899-like Patent Office beliefs ("We've explored everything of value. Let's focus on fortifying our borders and appeasing our Klingon friends." - idiot Starfleet CinC).

I mean, exploration in TOS was extremely dangerous, with them running into godlike beings all the time. Maybe there was a thaw in the hopes of building up their technology again before sending ships out too far (only for the Ent-D to run into a godlike being the first trip out...).

 

[Space Coast]

After a fashion, but it has everything to do with Star Trek.

Look, in 2364 humanity had charted 11% of the galaxy, per "Where No One Has Gone Before", right? That's 5.016 trillion cubic light-years. By a year later in "The Dauphin", it's 19%, a total of 8.664 trilion ly³. That's....enormous. That CAN'T have been actually explored. So, the question remains as asked: what's the difference between known & explored space?

Indiscriminate probe spamming. It's what we've been doing since we could put tin cans in space and it's worked so far, why would Starfleet stop?

 

[Timo]

I suppose it also depends on how you define "space". Because there's not much to chart about space, per se.

In Trek, this must be moderated by the fact that the empty vacuum in which the starships travel has at least two layers. What looks like nothing much may be a subspace shallows or even a subspace maelstrom, and apparently those aren't visible at a distance even to the subspace sensors of our heroes. Perhaps some charting of interstellar space actually takes place to this end, tying up massive resources that might otherwise be used for exploring things that humans can touch, taste and exploit?

Assuming that the years before were suffering a notable decline in exploration due to various border conflicts (Cardassian, Tzenkethi, Talarian) and political intrigue or 1899-like Patent Office beliefs ("We've explored everything of value. Let's focus on fortifying our borders and appeasing our Klingon friends." - idiot Starfleet CinC).

At least the former is a nice timeline match, yeah.

I mean, exploration in TOS was extremely dangerous, with them running into godlike beings all the time. Maybe there was a thaw in the hopes of building up their technology again before sending ships out too far (only for the Ent-D to run into a godlike being the first trip out...).

Exploration could well proceed in waves, with the Feds first reaching Deneb, then building it up as a stepping stone and then, when it's already frequented by retirees and inspection teams, finally launching the next wave from there.

While the idea that the E-D turned back because of Q and killed the next wave is a neat one, it's a bit contrary to what actually was described as the Starfleet plan. Picard's mission never was to explore beyond Farpoint - he was merely to see if the new Farpoint station was shipshape for supporting exploration by other starships. Or,

"Captain's log, stardate 41153.7. Our destination is planet Deneb IV, beyond which lies the great unexplored mass of the galaxy. My orders are to examine Farpoint, a starbase built there by the inhabitants of that world."

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

The thread title keeps making me think of a cartoon I saw a couple of weeks ago. A father asks his slacker teenage son, "Do you know the difference between ignorance and apathy?"

The kid says "I don't know, and I don't care."

Sorry - carry on.

 

[Nyotarules]

Known space - we sent a probe
Explored space - we stuck a flag on the planet and claimed the whole area

 

[Voth commando1]

Why can't they use telescopes for distant observation?

I mean they could map stars, observe planets and what not great distances away.

Of course that doesn't have to defeat the fun of actually being out there and exploring just if you run into a down time or the admiralty is acting more stubborn then usual supplement ship exploration with use of telescopes and long range probes.

 

[Timo]

Why can't they use telescopes for distant observation?

Time lag. Electromagnetic radiation traveling from the distant target to the telescope shows what the place was like 12,345 years ago. But nobody cares, because the interesting thing about places in Trek is who lives there and how, and for that knowledge you need realtime data.

We have little idea of the maximum range of FTL telescopes in Trek - all we know, from TNG "Parallels", is that they exist. But even if they had infinite range, they'd not replace ships and probes as exploration tools mainly because the latter appear to be cheaper. Or at least the E-D is significantly smaller than the Argus Array, and can probably study about as many targets during its operational life.

What have we seen or heard being observed via telescopes? Nothing much except military secrets: the Cardassians spying on Mars in "Parallels", the Feds somehow spying Romulus and Remus to gain the images of Spock in "Unification" and the Reman mines in ST:NEM. The list of what has not been observed until a ship or a probe did a flyby is long, but is that because the telescopes were pointed the wrong way or because they couldn't reach that far, or neither of the above?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Voth commando1]

Trelane in TOS apparently observed Napoleon's campaigns.

He is a minor Godling I'll admit but I don't see why the technology wouldn't exist.

 

[Timo]

But (assuming the scenario was true and not just one of the god-kid's jokes) that was specifically subject to the time lag. Trelane wouldn't have been aware of things that would be of interest to most interstellar players, such as the existence of the Federation Capital on Earth nowadays.

If a telescope shows a planet to be Class M, big deal - the galaxy is littered with those... If it has the resolution to show a humanoid culture there, it's not that much bigger a deal.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Which brings up a wonder I've always had - why not use visual light travel as a means of observation? i.e. -
Spock: "It appears that whatever destroyed this solar system happened one week ago."
Kirk: "Sulu, take us one light-week away from the system and hold relative position. Checkov, aim the visual spectrum telescope, let's see what happened."

 

[Timo]

Indeed. Perhaps only Trelane has the resolution to catch the nuances of what Alexander Hamilton was wearing, but a star system dying might still be quite a sight from one lightweek away. Even at abysmal resolution, one could get helpful spectrography or whatnot.

Might be that those FTL sensors that can resolve Spock's mop of hair on Romulus from a supposed great distance use clever cheats to achieve that resolution, cheats not available to optical telescopes. How would a starship see another starship optically from across a lightweek? There are no kilometer-wide mirrors aboard, as we can readily see.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shik]

Thank you, everyone, for your input. I think I've got my definitions resolved now. To use an analogy, in 1803, everything east of the Mississippi was explored by the US; the recently-acquired Louisiana Purchase was known but not explored until Lewis & Clark, Freeman & Custis, & Pike made their journeys into it.

Now to go back to wrestling with volumetrics & adapting "Hamilton" lyrics as subchapter headings.

 

[Ensign Ellora Dannan]

Are we ready for Space Exploration? Well, NASA had the materials to build an Enterprise Starship about 2-3 years after the Original series started (per Isaac Asimov). Now 50 years later, we have the technology & computers to fill the Bridge and actually make it work and as of last year, NASA Physics released the news that they DID build an EM Propulsion Engine that really works (better then the Warp idea) and they want to use it for the upcoming Mars Mission. Now I ask you why haven't they built the actual ship?? Could it be that the Government is too scared to go "where no one has gone before"?? The real USS Enterprise (air craft carrier/battleship) was decommissioned on February 3rd, THIS YEAR!!! So, what's next? Hopefully, the NX-01 ( I feel that design fits our real concept of the first star ship). The other Enterprise ships are too advanced for our time. Anyone else have comments?

 

[The Old Mixer]

Anyone else have comments?

I do. Please don't stealth a new topic into an existing thread, especially a topic that doesn't even belong in this forum. If the state of RL space exploration is your thing, you might try Science and Technology. If it's conspiracy theories, you could try Miscellaneous, but I can't guarantee you won't get shut down there.

 

[Ensign Ellora Dannan]

Sorry about that. I did say I was new to this. Thanks for the input. I'll try to keep up with the threads. This is all so new and a little confusing but I'll get through.