True - but if someone brings you advice from the future, you'd probably be inclined to take it seriously.
What's the Big Lesson in STXI?
- Thread starter Anticitizen
- Start date
True - but if someone brings you advice from the future, you'd probably be inclined to take it seriously.
A
Amaris
Guest
Exactly.
No, if someone brought advice from the future, I'd think they were nuts.
J.
I think Spock Prime's mind-meld probably did a serviceable job of verifying his identity/claims.
A
Amaris
Guest
Maybe, but new life comes in all forms. If someone claimed they were God and made the statue of liberty disappear, would you believe them? The point being, Kirk didn't have to accept anything Spock Prime told him. He could have wrote him off completely.
J.
Nowhere Man
Commodore
I would say that the lesson of TVH was not just save the whales , but that there's more than one intelligent life form on this planet and in the galxy. It's up to us to protect and respect those life forms. Star trek XI was about friendship and embracing destiny . There were some good moments , but the movie was so fast paced that you really didn't have a chance to examine the theme. Orci and Kurtzman should work on thier writing, they have the comedy part down , but not the drama as much. Same problem I had with Transformers. I hope the squel will touch on that more.
A
Amaris
Guest
^ Now that they've got the introductions out of the way, we should be able to sail into a really juicy storyline.
J.
J.
Nowhere Man
Commodore
yeah, I hope so
There are many different messages one could take away from any movie, the one i think your looking for in this movie might be
"Stick with your strengths, don't let the past ruin your future".
To me that applies to the film in general(aka gives up on nemisis and enterprise and does what we love best TOS), Kirk(decides to go with starfleet), Macoy(runs away from bad past into great future), Spock(ignores others abuse of breed), Scotty(finally gets trhe job he deserves) , Nero (stuck in the past) etc.
If you want a almighty theme let that be it.
"Stick with your strengths, don't let the past ruin your future".
To me that applies to the film in general(aka gives up on nemisis and enterprise and does what we love best TOS), Kirk(decides to go with starfleet), Macoy(runs away from bad past into great future), Spock(ignores others abuse of breed), Scotty(finally gets trhe job he deserves) , Nero (stuck in the past) etc.
If you want a almighty theme let that be it.
That J.J. Abrams should have taken over a long time ago.
I hereby award you with the BEST ONE LINER in the ENTIRE THREAD.
Congratulations, sir (or ma'am)
To comment on the "morals and philosophies" aspect of Star Trek, these were two credentials that, IMHO, were greatly exaggerated and even borderline imagined by some hardcore Trekkies and even perpetuated in the media whenever they felt the need to defend Star Trek against other franchises or to the general public.
Whenever Star Trek is compared to another franchise or is criticized, then here will come the whole "Star Trek made you think, Star Trek showed the world a better way, Only smart people like Trek, etc." It was amusing, I've even seen some say that "Star Trek showed us that the future was a better place and safer," of course, that is until the next week when the Enterprise crew or humanity were threatened out of existance. Someone even on another forum implied that TOS would ignite "hours and hours of discussion" amongst the youth of the time because TOS was just that engaging. Puhleeze.
As I say, these aspects are usually brought to the forefront by fans whenever the series is compared to other franchises. However, within the fandom itself it seems like the subject is not really discussed that much or even that important. You don't see fans going out and buying merchandise such as T-Shirts with "Star Trek Philosophies" written on them. People aren't buying model kits of "The Roddenberry Vision" and applying coats of morals primed with a glossy vision of the future. We aren't skipping over the battle scenes in the DVDs of the Trek movies or episodes just to get to the "really good parts" where they are setting around discussing the merits of peace and if war is a good or bad. Trekkies aren't dressing up in Trek costumes at conventions and re-enacting peace treaties with the dressed up Klingons at the conventions.
Hell to-the-fucking no!
The Starfleet and Klingon wannabes are gonna duke it out and engage in phase fire (as long as no one in public sees them.) They are going to buy props of phasers, reenact battle scenes with their model kits and playsets, put battle scars on their model kits, buy T-Shirts that have no other value than just having Picard's head on the front of their T-Shirts. That's how Trekkies really are! I should know, I'm one of them! We're going to comment on how cool battle scenes were, etc.
This is even reflected in the most popular episodes of Trek, most of which aren't known because they "brought you a moment of pause to think about the blah blah blah." One of the only few "intellectually engaging" episodes of Trek that I can think of that were hugely popular would be either "City on the Edge of Forever," and maybe DS9's "Far Beyond The Stars" (which actually would follow more under 'moderately popular,' maybe.) However, when it comes down to it, most of us enjoy the hell out of "The Wrath of Khan" or "First Contact," "The Best of Both Worlds," "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Balance of Terror," "The Year of Hell," or will even enjoy "The Trouble With Tribbles," an episode which to revert back to Dennis' prior comment, is probably up there with the most philosophically empty episodes, yet is one of the most popular and well known episodes in the franchise's history!
Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not saying that Star Trek in general is brainless or didn't have any of the elements we have been discussion. There are some good moments throughout with these elements, and Star Trek could be rather engaging when it wanted to be. I enjoy that stuff. However, when they started to get a little too heavy handed about "The future" and "This giant peaceful utopia" etc to the point that it became slightly cringeworthy, then all of the suddenly viewers and Trekkies started saying "Bye bye." Somewhat the same thing with DS9. Its ratings started off respectably but just kept dropping and dropping right off the bat. Why was that? Fans didn't feel there was enough action apparently. Here came the Defiant, the war arcs, and now DS9 gets praised by a lot of Trekkies (save for the first few seasons.) Did this save the ratings? Not really, though I think DS9 had a few other factors involved in its ratings slip, to be perfectly fair.
So here comes Star Trek 11. A surefire hit that was done by "outsiders" and the supposed "90210 Cast" that some of the haters like to say, and a movie that was about to make the rest of Star Trek seem even more cornball than before. So what was the ammo the doubters brought out? "Morals and philosophies." What's ironic is that there are underlying themes there, but they aren't spoonfed to us. Morals and lessons aren't always learned through discussions but through actions, or just living. You just have to "make the connection." However, because the message wasn't heavy handed or explained to the audience, those detractors will claim the movie is "dumbed down." Ironic.
Moral Of The Story - Star Trek isn't dumb or brainless, but it's not always as intellectual as some Trekkies would like to believe either.
Whenever Star Trek is compared to another franchise or is criticized, then here will come the whole "Star Trek made you think, Star Trek showed the world a better way, Only smart people like Trek, etc." It was amusing, I've even seen some say that "Star Trek showed us that the future was a better place and safer," of course, that is until the next week when the Enterprise crew or humanity were threatened out of existance. Someone even on another forum implied that TOS would ignite "hours and hours of discussion" amongst the youth of the time because TOS was just that engaging. Puhleeze.
As I say, these aspects are usually brought to the forefront by fans whenever the series is compared to other franchises. However, within the fandom itself it seems like the subject is not really discussed that much or even that important. You don't see fans going out and buying merchandise such as T-Shirts with "Star Trek Philosophies" written on them. People aren't buying model kits of "The Roddenberry Vision" and applying coats of morals primed with a glossy vision of the future. We aren't skipping over the battle scenes in the DVDs of the Trek movies or episodes just to get to the "really good parts" where they are setting around discussing the merits of peace and if war is a good or bad. Trekkies aren't dressing up in Trek costumes at conventions and re-enacting peace treaties with the dressed up Klingons at the conventions.
Hell to-the-fucking no!
The Starfleet and Klingon wannabes are gonna duke it out and engage in phase fire (as long as no one in public sees them.) They are going to buy props of phasers, reenact battle scenes with their model kits and playsets, put battle scars on their model kits, buy T-Shirts that have no other value than just having Picard's head on the front of their T-Shirts. That's how Trekkies really are! I should know, I'm one of them! We're going to comment on how cool battle scenes were, etc.
This is even reflected in the most popular episodes of Trek, most of which aren't known because they "brought you a moment of pause to think about the blah blah blah." One of the only few "intellectually engaging" episodes of Trek that I can think of that were hugely popular would be either "City on the Edge of Forever," and maybe DS9's "Far Beyond The Stars" (which actually would follow more under 'moderately popular,' maybe.) However, when it comes down to it, most of us enjoy the hell out of "The Wrath of Khan" or "First Contact," "The Best of Both Worlds," "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Balance of Terror," "The Year of Hell," or will even enjoy "The Trouble With Tribbles," an episode which to revert back to Dennis' prior comment, is probably up there with the most philosophically empty episodes, yet is one of the most popular and well known episodes in the franchise's history!
Now, to be perfectly clear, I am not saying that Star Trek in general is brainless or didn't have any of the elements we have been discussion. There are some good moments throughout with these elements, and Star Trek could be rather engaging when it wanted to be. I enjoy that stuff. However, when they started to get a little too heavy handed about "The future" and "This giant peaceful utopia" etc to the point that it became slightly cringeworthy, then all of the suddenly viewers and Trekkies started saying "Bye bye." Somewhat the same thing with DS9. Its ratings started off respectably but just kept dropping and dropping right off the bat. Why was that? Fans didn't feel there was enough action apparently. Here came the Defiant, the war arcs, and now DS9 gets praised by a lot of Trekkies (save for the first few seasons.) Did this save the ratings? Not really, though I think DS9 had a few other factors involved in its ratings slip, to be perfectly fair.
So here comes Star Trek 11. A surefire hit that was done by "outsiders" and the supposed "90210 Cast" that some of the haters like to say, and a movie that was about to make the rest of Star Trek seem even more cornball than before. So what was the ammo the doubters brought out? "Morals and philosophies." What's ironic is that there are underlying themes there, but they aren't spoonfed to us. Morals and lessons aren't always learned through discussions but through actions, or just living. You just have to "make the connection." However, because the message wasn't heavy handed or explained to the audience, those detractors will claim the movie is "dumbed down." Ironic.
Moral Of The Story - Star Trek isn't dumb or brainless, but it's not always as intellectual as some Trekkies would like to believe either.
Say what you like, I watch it for the message. I look for the message in just about every literature I consume. Life seems fairly pointless to me without it. That's what we're here for, rather than just mannequins or puppets or 'action figures' leading a merry dance. The action is necessary, as a hypodermic to deliver the message.
That's me.
Whether it's implicit or explicit doesn't bother me.
That's me.
Whether it's implicit or explicit doesn't bother me.
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Perhaps the moral is that the general public isn't as dumb or crass as the establishment thinks it to be?
Trex XI had only one purpose:
[Humphrey Bogart]"This is going to be the start of a beautiful friendship..."[/Bogart]
Oh, boy! Casablanca quotes!
Spock Prime: Do you know how you sound, Jim? Like a man who's trying to convince himself of something he doesn't believe in his heart. Each of us has a destiny - for good or for evil.
Kirk: I get the point.
Spock Prime: I wonder if you do. I wonder if you know that you're trying to escape from yourself, and that you'll never succeed.
Kirk: You seem to know all about my destiny.
^^^^^^^^^^^
That's the conversation Spock Prime and Kirk should've had in the cave. Spock Prime is Laszlo. Kirk is obviously Rick.
And, when Kirk sat in the captain's chair as captain, he could've uttered, "It seems that destiny has taken a hand."
See? It's true. Every movie in the world does relate back to Casablanca.
Edited to add: upon further review, the Laszlo-Rick conversation would've worked well in the bar, too. Just give Spock Prime's lines to Pike.
Pike: Do you know how you sound, Mr. Kirk? Like a man who's trying to convince himself of something he doesn't believe in his heart. Each of us has a destiny - for good or for evil.
Kirk: I get the point.
Pike: I wonder if you do. I wonder if you know that you're trying to escape from yourself, and that you'll never succeed.
Kirk: You seem to know all about my destiny.
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