What's keeping me out of the theatre....

[trevanian]

$79.2 mill for Thursday (2 showings) through Sunday, as well as the number one opening worldwide, bringing in another $35.5 million. It is almost $30 million MORE than the tracking numbers. Sunday actually was $3 million more than predicted, that's almost unheard of in box office estimations for a big movie. IMAX figures broke the record of Dark Knight. This movie made more than STIV (ST biggest domstic grosser)in 3.5 days. Its the 15th biggest May opening of all time.

RAMA

You might want to look back upthread for comment on winning the popular vote, guy.

And if it comes down to whether I'd prefer being SERENITY or a THE ROCK movie that seriously outgrossed it, the former will always win out.

But I'll grant you this ... it WILL be of interest if the thing has any b.o. legs ... up till recent times, TREK movies always opened huge (if you adjust for inflation and per screen average, you'll see TMP's open still seems beyond phenomenal.) But the dropoff, even on well-received pics like TWOK, is precipitous.

Maybe this one will be exempt ... because it isn't really a trek movie at all except in name and marketing. The destiny-over-choice thing that the movie seems to be pushing is clearly antiTrek, and just as troubling, Nimoy's apparent decision to link himself to the project on the basis of a vague connection to the Holocaust is at odds with his previous position of protecting the character over all, especially given that the character is oddly content with the less than ideal results, instead of doing the right & risky thing or die trying to fix things.

Yeah, your fandom IS better off without such dissenting musings. Might hurt somebody's head or pop a blood vessel.

That's why I mentioned the critics. It is a critical success. It has the highest rating of any ST movie on any poll or critic survey. I guess it wins both.

I am fine with dissenting opinions that are in the minority if they are well reasoned and sensible, its the "purists" white knuckling it on their couches to not go see it for whatever bizarre canon reason. This thread tends to fall into that category and most are easy to dismiss out of hand.

RAMA

I'm seeing you spend a lot of time for 'dismissing it out of hand' ... and again, your going on the offensive against somebody choosing not to see it seems downright strange, from where I SIT.

Canon doesn't mean anything to me. Content and meaning and (to some degree) style does. None of this as evidenced in clips evokes TREK to me; rather the opposite in fact.

 

[ST-One]

Canon doesn't mean anything to me. Content and meaning and (to some degree) style does. None of this as evidenced in clips evokes TREK to me; rather the opposite in fact.

And how, pray tell, should a few disjoined clips manage to do that?

 

[Warped9]

Okay, I saw it.

Garbage. I didn’t like one single aspect of this thing. I didn’t like the production design. I didn’t like the costuming. I didn’t like the music. I didn’t like the story. I didn’t like the characterizations (or interpretations thereof). I really looked for something to like and I didn’t find a thing.

It was nothing but one over-the-top cliché after another and each of them grated on my nerves. Including clichés based on next to nothing—Kirk FINALLY makes it with a green alien chick. Whooee!

I also didn’t find it fun in the least. But I did find it incredibly stupid and dumb-as-shit. I’m an hour and half into the film before the remotest spark of interest hits me, but long before then I really couldn’t care less. There's no logic whatsoever to how things unfold or why things are done.

Kirk’s punk like characterization got on my nerves from the start and never did I see one iota of roguish appeal that William Shatner’s Kirk has in spades. And there is ZERO logic to support how Kirk ends up with command by the end of the film. In fact all the characters were clichés with zero nuance and subsequently zero depth and zero warmth. All the characters were played as caricatures as likely seen by the general audience, but they were all light years from the nuanced characters that TOS gave us from the very first episode. Even Bruce Green’s Pike lacked any of the appeal that I found in Jeffery Hunter’s portrayal of Pike—and Hunter only had one go at the role way back in 1965 and Greenwood is actually a good actor, just not here. They couldn’t even give us an interesting villain. Nimoy had more nuance in his five minutes than the entire rest of the film.

The only emotional quotient in this thing was the equivalent of an adolescent’s first orgasm jerking himself off to equally juvenile fantasies. And right alongside that was the equally total absence of any intelligence in the film. This was the equivalent of a glorified fanzine made live-action. Instead of going back to original source materiel and understanding all the things that made TOS work well when it was on its game they elected to pander to the lowest denominators. It’s okay to do the occasional nudge-and-wink shtick, but you can’t have nearly an entire film of that. Galaxy Quest was more entertaining and I didn’t think that was much. Instead of crafting a genuine Star Trek space adventure drama that resonated like TOS they cranked out something resembling what average John and Jane Q. Public thinks Trek is. True, this isn’t your father’s Star Trek, but rather his know-nothing punk son’s rip-off of it—all grungy flash and no substance. I’m actually surprised Chekov didn’t have a bolt or something pierced through his eyebrow.

And here’s an irony. While I detest every single continuity change made, even with it being a reboot, it could still all have been salvaged with smarter, more deft writing. But such was not to be. Christ, even STV - The Finial Frontier was better than this. Episodes like “Spock’s Brain” are pure rocket science compared to this. First season TNG was more engaging.

To cap it all off the excessive handycam work was not at all appreciated. I’m really getting annoyed with this style of filming. It gives me a headache.

This film looked more Farscape or new Battlestar Galactica than Star Trek with its grungy industrial and cheap looking production design. But then it goes right alongside the new U.S.S. Uglyprise.

But I am gratified that in fashioning such a fucked-up failure it’s really easy to divorce this thoroughly from the original series. However, it does fit neatly with ENT which was a failure of its own. And if I could I would console Shatner to be glad he had nothing to do with this turkey. Too bad Nimoy can no longer make that claim.

Suffice to say I’m glad I didn’t pay to see this in the theatre. And I sure as hell wouldn’t pay even two cents for the dvd. It’s also safe to say that I won’t be bothering with any subsequent films as long as they’re following Abrams’ approach to the subject matter. Abrams, like Manny Coto before, has been hyped as a saviour yet here he shows he’s just a purveyor of mediocrity.

Deep down I wanted to be proven wrong on some level. But this thing couldn’t even meet my lowest expectations. It was one cringe or disgusted groan inducing thing after another. After four decades of watching various films this one joins the ranks of utter disappointments right alongside the likes of Battlefield Earth, Starship Troopers, The Fifth Element, Superman Returns, Batman & Robin, Batman Forever, Insurrection, Nemesis and the recent remake of The Day The Earth Stood Still.

The cliché that things today are all flash and no substance is in truth usually overblown, but not here. This follows the true dumb action flick approach: cram it with stuff and run it all at breakneck speed to veil the fact that there's nothing of any sense happening.

No subtlety, Not a whit of intelligence. Not a hint of nuance. And not one measure of maturity.

Garbage.

 

[Aike]

Thief.

 

[Warped9]

Thief.

Very cerebral of you. Keep 'em coming.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Deep down I wanted to be proven wrong on some level.

Of course you did, my friend. You love Star Trek.

What it comes down to, ultimately, is this: do you want Master and Commander or do you want Pirates of the Carribean? I want the former, actually, but I can grin like a chimp at the latter if I have to.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Deep down I wanted to be proven wrong on some level.

I think your reaction to the movie is perfectly valid, and one could even write a rational argument to support it, but this sentence doesn't ring true, not with all that hyperbole.

 

[ST-One]

Okay, I saw it.

Garbage. I didn’t like one single aspect of this thing. I didn’t like the production design.

Okay, so it wasn't to your tastes...

I didn’t like the costuming.

Of course you didn't, considering that the costumes are as close as it get to the originals without copying them 100 %.

I didn’t like the music.

Okay, so it wasn't to your tastes...

I didn’t like the story.

Okay...

I didn’t like the characterizations (or interpretations thereof).

They are the same characters... How could you not like them?

I really looked for something to like and I didn’t find a thing.

Don't kid yourself.

It was nothing but one over-the-top cliché after another and each of them grated on my nerves. Including clichés based on next to nothing—Kirk FINALLY makes it with a green alien chick. Whooee!

No, he didn't.

I also didn’t find it fun in the least. But I did find it incredibly stupid and dumb-as-shit. I’m an hour and half into the film before the remotest spark of interest hits me, but long before then I really couldn’t care less. There's no logic whatsoever to how things unfold or why things are done.

Kirk’s punk like characterization got on my nerves from the start and never did I see one iota of roguish appeal that William Shatner’s Kirk has in spades. And there is ZERO logic to support how Kirk ends up with command by the end of the film. In fact all the characters were clichés with zero nuance and subsequently zero depth and zero warmth. All the characters were played as caricatures as likely seen by the general audience, but they were all light years from the nuanced characters that TOS gave us from the very first episode. Even Bruce Green’s Pike lacked any of the appeal that I found in Jeffery Hunter’s portrayal of Pike—and Hunter only had one go at the role way back in 1965 and Greenwood is actually a good actor, just not here. They couldn’t even give us an interesting villain. Nimoy had more nuance in his five minutes than the entire rest of the film.

The only emotional quotient in this thing was the equivalent of an adolescent’s first orgasm jerking himself off to equally juvenile fantasies. And right alongside that was the equally total absence of any intelligence in the film. This was the equivalent of a glorified fanzine made live-action. Instead of going back to original source materiel and understanding all the things that made TOS work well when it was on its game they elected to pander to the lowest denominators. It’s okay to do the occasional nudge-and-wink shtick, but you can’t have nearly an entire film of that. Galaxy Quest was more entertaining and I didn’t think that was much. Instead of crafting a genuine Star Trek space adventure drama that resonated like TOS they cranked out something resembling what average John and Jane Q. Public thinks Trek is. True, this isn’t your father’s Star Trek, but rather his know-nothing punk son’s rip-off of it—all grungy flash and no substance. I’m actually surprised Chekov didn’t have a bolt or something pierced through his eyebrow.

And here’s an irony. While I detest every single continuity change made, even with it being a reboot, it could still all have been salvaged with smarter, more deft writing. But such was not to be. Christ, even STV - The Finial Frontier was better than this. Episodes like “Spock’s Brain” are pure rocket science compared to this. First season TNG was more engaging.

To cap it all off the excessive handycam work was not at all appreciated. I’m really getting annoyed with this style of filming. It gives me a headache.

This film looked more Farscape or new Battlestar Galactica than Star Trek with its grungy industrial and cheap looking production design. But then it goes right alongside the new U.S.S. Uglyprise.

But I am gratified that in fashioning such a fucked-up failure it’s really easy to divorce this thoroughly from the original series. However, it does fit neatly with ENT which was a failure of its own. And if I could I would console Shatner to be glad he had nothing to do with this turkey. Too bad Nimoy can no longer make that claim.

Suffice to say I’m glad I didn’t pay to see this in the theatre. And I sure as hell wouldn’t pay even two cents for the dvd. It’s also safe to say that I won’t be bothering with any subsequent films as long as they’re following Abrams’ approach to the subject matter. Abrams, like Manny Coto before, has been hyped as a saviour yet here he shows he’s just a purveyor of mediocrity.

Deep down I wanted to be proven wrong on some level. But this thing couldn’t even meet my lowest expectations. It was one cringe or disgusted groan inducing thing after another. After four decades of watching various films this one joins the ranks of utter disappointments right alongside the likes of Battlefield Earth, Starship Troopers, The Fifth Element, Superman Returns, Batman & Robin, Batman Forever, Insurrection, Nemesis and the recent remake of The Day The Earth Stood Still.

The cliché that things today are all flash and no substance is in truth usually overblown, but not here. This follows the true dumb action flick approach: cram it with stuff and run it all at breakneck speed to veil the fact that there's nothing of any sense happening.

No subtlety, Not a whit of intelligence. Not a hint of nuance. And not one measure of maturity.

Garbage.

Yes, your post in a nutshell.

 

[trevanian]

Thief.

Interesting ethical question: if you steal something worth nothing, how do you quantify the theft?

Probably headier stuff than the movie being discussed, eh?

 

[Warped9]

ST One, you haven't refuted one goddamned thing. But then you rarely do.

Deep down I wanted to be proven wrong on some level.

Of course you did, my friend. You love Star Trek.

What it comes down to, ultimately, is this: do you want Master and Commander or do you want Pirates of the Carribean? I want the former, actually, but I can grin like a chimp at the latter if I have to.

I wanted the former as well.

Grading the films now?

TMP - B
TWOK - B-
TSFS - B-
TVH - C
TFF - C
TUC - C+
GEN - D
FC - D
INS - F
NEM - F
ST - F

 

[trevanian]

Canon doesn't mean anything to me. Content and meaning and (to some degree) style does. None of this as evidenced in clips evokes TREK to me; rather the opposite in fact.

And how, pray tell, should a few disjoined clips manage to do that?

Repudiating the basic respect for future tech extrapolation;

dispensing with the usual level of visual clarity (outside of TVH and bits of TMP, that is);

ignoring the tenants of design through disjointed and uncoordinated use of existing stuff alongside overtly sci-fi elements, instead of creatively bridging between the two;

putting the characters into a Campbellesque/Lucas meatgrinder designed to produce mythos, something that when so calculated can only produce formula (in fact, the old David Gerrold 'when format becomes formula' notion here may well be worked into 'when contemporary action movie template becomes bible for remakes.')

That's just off the top of my head w/o any reflection. If there are folks who saw and disliked the movie (or folks with PTROPE level tastes) that care to weigh in on these aspects (yay or nay), I'd be interested to hear from you.

 

[trevanian]

It is a critical success. It has the highest rating of any ST movie on any poll or critic survey. I guess it wins both.

I just noticed this part of your post. Isn't it wonderful that trek fans have been able to ignore and deride critic responses to the TV shows and movies for decades, and now suddenly the critics are your darlings after a single round of applause for THIS pic?

Frontrunners ...

 

[ST-One]

Canon doesn't mean anything to me. Content and meaning and (to some degree) style does. None of this as evidenced in clips evokes TREK to me; rather the opposite in fact.

And how, pray tell, should a few disjoined clips manage to do that?

Repudiating the basic respect for future tech extrapolation;

Or just your idea of it.

dispensing with the usual level of visual clarity (outside of TVH and bits of TMP, that is);

Whatever that means.
Sounds very much like hollow phrase, thrown around to make you sound intelligent.

ignoring the tenants of design through disjointed and uncoordinated use of existing stuff alongside overtly sci-fi elements, instead of creatively bridging between the two;

Because the real world only follows one design-easthetic...?

putting the characters into a Campbellesque/Lucas meatgrinder designed to produce mythos, something that when so calculated can only produce formula (in fact, the old David Gerrold 'when format becomes formula' notion here may well be worked into 'when contemporary action movie template becomes bible for remakes.')

Aha...

That's just off the top of my head w/o any reflection.

Indeed.

 

[Warped9]

^^ Your insightful remarks are so illuminating. Nice to see there's nothing in the room.

If someone doesn't like something and takes the time to articulate why then trying to be smartass doesn't refute them. If you disagree then explain why you like it as counterpoint.

 

[ST-One]

^^ Your insightful remarks are so illuminating. Nice to see there's nothing in the room.

If someone doesn't like something and takes the time to articulate why then trying to be smartass doesn't refute them. If you disagree then explain why you like it as counterpoint.

I tried to write something with a little more substance, but I gave up.
It's actually pointless to argue with you, since you meassure everything up against the, in your view, only one valid interpretation of these characters: the 1960s acting of the original cast.

So, just bow your head in 'insta-grief', like Uhura in 'Space Seed' and bemoan the death of your vision of Star Trek.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

If someone doesn't like something and takes the time to articulate why then trying to be smartass doesn't refute them. If you disagree then explain why you like it as counterpoint.

To be fair, Warped9, what you've posted here is an extremely emotional piece, a violent rejection of every single aspect of the movie, which is of course your right, but there just isn't much there to refute. You've expressed your opinion quite clearly, but if you don't intend to elaborate or add anything to it, the only reaction you're likely to get is "I don't agree, I liked the movie".

 

[Warped9]

^^ You miss the point then. Don't argue with someone to try to persuade them otherwise. Simply state your case as youi see it.

I can allow for other interpretations. But If they go in a direction I disagree with then I'm not bound to like it.

Backing up a bit I can allow for a smirk or two in this film. But it's so little amongst everything I feel they've done wrong. I don't expect a carbon copy of TOS. But I do expect a genuine effort to build upon the things that brought TOS tolife for many of us. If they don't want to do that then they won't get my interest.

As for elaborating on the specifics it gets tricky in avoiding spoilers (which I did one by accident already).

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

^^ You miss the point then. Don't argue with someone to try to persuade them otherwise. Simply state your case as youi see it.

That's alright if you don't want to do more than that, but then there's no point in accusing ST-One of being unable to refute your points.

But I do expect a genuine effort to build upon the things that brought TOS tolife for many of us. If they don't want to do that then they won't get my interest.

Fair enough, but there's a huge difference between "they won't get my interest" and "episodes like “Spock’s Brain” are pure rocket science compared to this. First season TNG was more engaging", a difference that can't be explained by reading your review.

 

[Kelso]

I don't know why you bothered, Warped9. You knew that you weren't going to like it.

I still haven't seen that abysmal looking remake of I Spy. And, no, I don't need to see it to make an informed opinion... I can tell a shit film from the trailers, thanks.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I do expect a genuine effort to build upon the things that brought TOS tolife for many of us.

In the version I saw, there were dozens and dozens of genuine efforts "to build upon the things that brought TOS to life for many of us".