Whatever happened to the Genesis technology?

[2takesfrakes]

And how would they move Europa? And what if there really is life there, would thawing the place kill that life?

I presume you're asking this in terms of a STAR TREK show? I'm not really a STAR TREK technologies buff, or anything. But deflector dishes have been used on starships to push asteroids, starships and other massive objects a short distance (beyond a certain danger zone). Also, consider the size of that ridiculous mushroom-looking spacedock revolving around Earth. Something that huge must surely have its own gravitational influence. Send that after Europa and push it along, like a tugboat nudging a tanker.

As for Europa, I have to agree that in the STAR TREK Universe, that icy moon is known to support Life. I personally do not see how Europa could, in reality, harbour even alien microbes. Yes, there's probably an ocean, but it's an icey slush, probably with thermal vents spaced few and far between. Also, in Jupiter's environment, I seriously doubt the chemistry's right for it. But until NASA says otherwise, STAR TREK is free to assume that Life is there. Microbes on Mars were found to easily co-exist with Humans in ENT, nobody seemed worried about them, or brought them up, even. Humanity just set up camp and didn't give it a second thought. I'm sure the same can be said of Europa. And, once moved, if the warmer climate didn't agree with Europa's microbes, I'm sure Starfleet would be accommodating, some way.

But STAR TREK uses technology to beam down, mostly, instead of using shuttles, though they're available. And the same could be said of Genesis technology. The Federation - and Starfleet - would rather use an impactor than move planetoids around. Both will do the job, but the show's got to wow us with what Man can achieve, when he's found himself in the right century, with good resources.

This link even has an over-simplified map to describe how NASA plans on diverting an asteroid to orbit the Moon, should it ever follow through on it:
http://phys.org/news/2013-01-nasa-capturing-asteroid-moon-orbit.html

This one is just an official announcement on the matter by NASA. A very wordy article that doesn't seem to say a lot:
https://www.nasa.gov/jpl/asteroid/asteroid-redirect-mission-20140214/

 

[Captain Rob]

Ah........... OK I thought the victims were incinerated and petrified ...... So that's why I called it a Gorgon device.

My mistake. Didn't get the reference.
Mention 'gorgon' on a Star Trek board and I assume you're talking about a big, fat, grey haired, pasty-faced white guy in a shower curtain pretending to be an evil ghost.

 

[Captain Rob]

As opposed to all those live corpses.

Hey, it's Star Trek. Anything's possible.
Wasn't Harry Kim a live corpse at some point?
Or was that just his acting style.

 

[Timo]

Which is one of my big beefs with "Nemesis". Don't back away from the thing as it's about to go off.

Yet who did? The E-E was immobile - despite Picard's orders to "try", there was no visible attempt to run in any direction, be it obvious or idiotic. If the visuals of Data's leap suggest slightly increased distance between the two ships (and they don't necessarily do that), this would probably be due solely to the previous effort by the Scimitar to back off, leaving a slight velocity differential remaining.

It was Genesis that our heroes tried to escape in a ship all too slow for the purpose, and in that case direction didn't matter. Although Sulu did choose to back off on reverse first, then turn, suggesting that such a maneuver would not be disadvantageous to just plain barging forward past the Reliant - that is, suggesting that the Enterprise could move at any direction or orientation equally well under (auxiliary) impulse power.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

BTW how did Data manage to do that leap in open space and not just fly off? Did he have some kind of way of controlling his momentum?

 

[Timo]

What would be the problem? The beginning of his ballistic arc? He probably correctly and accurately calculated how the artificial gravity at the end of the Enterprise corridor would pull him down after his final step, turning his leap perfectly horizontal - and then simply got a very good grip of whatever he hit on the Scimitar.

Data isn't explicitly credited with a means to control his momentum. But if he can be dense enough to walk at the bottom of a lake, and then light enough to float on its surface, there might be more going on than a mere inflatable butt there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What would be the problem? The beginning of his ballistic arc? He probably correctly and accurately calculated how the artificial gravity at the end of the Enterprise corridor would pull him down after his final step, turning his leap perfectly horizontal - and then simply got a very good grip of whatever he hit on the Scimitar.

Data isn't explicitly credited with a means to control his momentum. But if he can be dense enough to walk at the bottom of a lake, and then light enough to float on its surface, there might be more going on than a mere inflatable butt there.

Timo Saloniemi

Probably it's just that the run up and leap bugged me a little. Sure he makes it but in the middle of the arc he was weightless so he must have aimed it perfectly so he would be moving level and not in a parabolic motion. I just thought to myself that he should have flown off once he left the Enterprise gravity well.

 

[jaime]

Probably it's just that the run up and leap bugged me a little. Sure he makes it but in the middle of the arc he was weightless so he must have aimed it perfectly so he would be moving level and not in a parabolic motion. I just thought to myself that he should have flown off once he left the Enterprise gravity well.

Don't forget the venting atmosphere...

 

[Timo]

Would there be any? Data apparently went out through an airlock of sorts, with two consecutive forcefields. There was some vapor billowing into that airlock, but would there have been noticeable pressure remaining when the outer forcefield opened? Tellingly, said vapor was not blown out in gale winds even though some CGI debris followed Data...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

Would there be any? Data apparently went out through an airlock of sorts, with two consecutive forcefields. There was some vapor billowing into that airlock, but would there have been noticeable pressure remaining when the outer forcefield opened? Tellingly, said vapor was not blown out in gale winds even though some CGI debris followed Data...

Timo Saloniemi

Yes.
But he is fully functional.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yes.
But he is fully functional.

That line always made me cringe.

I mean I can well imagine sex with Tasha yar and his pee pee would have been stiffer then a human's. The sex might have been most interesting for Tasha.

 

[jaime]

That line always made me cringe.

I mean I can well imagine sex with Tasha yar and his pee pee would have been stiffer then a human's. The sex might have been most interesting for Tasha.

I am old fashioned enough that I would prefer to have been Data in that situation. She had great hair.

 

[Captain Rob]

We now return you to our previously scheduled programming.

I'd bet that Starfleet security got a hold of the Genesis technology and kept it tightly locked away.
Maybe the Tri-Cobalt devices mentioned in Voyager "Caretaker" were an offshoot of Genesis technology.
I'm sure that the first thing Starfleet Security did with Genesis was to get rid of that stupid long countdown clock.

 

[Timo]

It doesn't look as if the countdown could be eliminated. After all, it was a "buildup to detonation" that "could not be stopped" - apparently, the Genesis effect began when the countdown started, when the system was "committed", and simply took its time to do its job. Eliminating the ticking clock would just leave everybody unaware of how much time was left.

...Otherwise, simply destroying the Genesis device should have been an option for saving our heroes. Not so if the device is the only thing keeping Genesis from happening right away!

As for tri-cobalt weapons, Starfleet seems to have stolen those from the Eminians (or Vendikans?) of "A Taste of Armageddon" already. Or then they are something primitive cultures typically come up with early on, and Starfleet isn't supposed to keep any in stock but the things just are so damn convenient at times, like white phosphorus or mustard gas...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jaime]

We now return you to our previously scheduled programming.

I'd bet that Starfleet security got a hold of the Genesis technology and kept it tightly locked away.
Maybe the Tri-Cobalt devices mentioned in Voyager "Caretaker" were an offshoot of Genesis technology.
I'm sure that the first thing Starfleet Security did with Genesis was to get rid of that stupid long countdown clock.

Tri cobalt seems to imply a rather large nuke, Genesis doesn't work directly as a weapon (certainly not ship to ship...it's the nebula that was important in the climatic scene of TWOK) and it's not necessarily the case that starfleet were remotely interested in directly weaponising Genesis.
Genesis works as a planetary doomsday weapon because it rewrites everything on the planet as a side effect of its high-speed large scale terraforming.

I am with the much earlier poster on this...the Regula 1 team wiped the files, everything else hard data went up with the mutara nebula, leaving only the Doctors Marcus with any knowledge of Genesis. It's strongly implied that David is the only one who made it work, even that it's more his project than anyone else's....and he died behind a bush on Genesis, after revealing Genesis wouldn't work because he had to use protomatter to force it, which ultimately destabilised the tech.

That leaves anything that Carol Marcus can dredge up from memory of a multi team multi discipline project, that she also associates with the most traumatic time of her life; and may also include anything they can glean from the mysteriously stable cave at Regula. However, that would likely be very little, as in order for the cave to be habitable and it's food edible, any residual 'genesis wave' type radiation would have to be gone, the implication being it's effect has a very limited half life.
Saavik may have some details from her conversations with David, I.e she knows you need protomatter and that also makes it fail, but doesn't necessarily know anything else at all.

The Genesis project would be a top secret history file, the tape Kruge had was little use to him and was basically Kirk and a PowerPoint presentation.
Any attempt to create a new Genesis device would be basically from scratch, and as a weapon is almost totally pointless...why use terraforming tech being put to a different use as a weapon when you can already reduce a planetary body to slag, or just blow up a star with a trilithium warhead? The only advantage it would have is as a terraforming device, and the only information of use from the original project is 'yeah, it's sort of possible, but also sort of totally useless for its only viable purpose'.
And even that viable purpose may no longer be necessary, since by next generation that need to eradicate want and need for food is definitely past (let's be honest, the federation probably didn't need Genesis to whip up bread basket world's even in the 23Rd century, it was already a post scarcity society and didnt use money anymore either...but it makes for a nice line in the movie that avoids the scientists looking like a 'because we can' group.) So every possible need for a failed project such as Genesis is behind them.

I did read the beginning of one of the books that had a nice scene where Picard was far enough away that he could literally see the Genesis explosion happen in front of him, in the past as it were. I felt that was a nice hard sci fi touch. Perhaps the modern books could have him experience a thing of sadness watching Armagosa go out from the Happy Bottoms Riding Club window or something, during some dark soul searching moment.

 

[jaime]

It doesn't look as if the countdown could be eliminated. After all, it was a "buildup to detonation" that "could not be stopped" - apparently, the Genesis effect began when the countdown started, when the system was "committed", and simply took its time to do its job. Eliminating the ticking clock would just leave everybody unaware of how much time was left.

...Otherwise, simply destroying the Genesis device should have been an option for saving our heroes. Not so if the device is the only thing keeping Genesis from happening right away!

As for tri-cobalt weapons, Starfleet seems to have stolen those from the Eminians (or Vendikans?) of "A Taste of Armageddon" already. Or then they are something primitive cultures typically come up with early on, and Starfleet isn't supposed to keep any in stock but the things just are so damn convenient at times, like white phosphorus or mustard gas...

Timo Saloniemi

I think the countdown is inherent to the Genesis process being a wave form, increasing exponentially once it has been triggered. (similar in some respects to a nuclear chain reaction, which given what they seem to be going for as an analogy makes a lot of sense. Ultimately, Khan is an eighties film about a middle eastern despot getting his hands on the bomb after all.)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Section 31 probably has all the Genesis data ..

Didn't the Admiral mention them in Into Darkness?

 

[jaime]

Section 31 probably has all the Genesis data ..

Didn't the Admiral mention them in Into Darkness?

Yup, but what happens in an alternate universe stays in an alternate universe. It's like Vegas. Only with scantily clad women and men with tiny beards. So it's just like Vegas.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Section 31 probably has all the Genesis data ..

Didn't the Admiral mention them in Into Darkness?

Mention them? He is them!

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Tri cobalt seems to imply a rather large nuke, Genesis doesn't work directly as a weapon (certainly not ship to ship...it's the nebula that was important in the climatic scene of TWOK) and it's not necessarily the case that starfleet were remotely interested in directly weaponising Genesis.
Genesis works as a planetary doomsday weapon because it rewrites everything on the planet as a side effect of its high-speed large scale terraforming.

I am with the much earlier poster on this...the Regula 1 team wiped the files, everything else hard data went up with the mutara nebula, leaving only the Doctors Marcus with any knowledge of Genesis. It's strongly implied that David is the only one who made it work, even that it's more his project than anyone else's....and he died behind a bush on Genesis, after revealing Genesis wouldn't work because he had to use protomatter to force it, which ultimately destabilised the tech.

That leaves anything that Carol Marcus can dredge up from memory of a multi team multi discipline project, that she also associates with the most traumatic time of her life; and may also include anything they can glean from the mysteriously stable cave at Regula. However, that would likely be very little, as in order for the cave to be habitable and it's food edible, any residual 'genesis wave' type radiation would have to be gone, the implication being it's effect has a very limited half life.
Saavik may have some details from her conversations with David, I.e she knows you need protomatter and that also makes it fail, but doesn't necessarily know anything else at all.

The Genesis project would be a top secret history file, the tape Kruge had was little use to him and was basically Kirk and a PowerPoint presentation.
Any attempt to create a new Genesis device would be basically from scratch, and as a weapon is almost totally pointless...why use terraforming tech being put to a different use as a weapon when you can already reduce a planetary body to slag, or just blow up a star with a trilithium warhead? The only advantage it would have is as a terraforming device, and the only information of use from the original project is 'yeah, it's sort of possible, but also sort of totally useless for its only viable purpose'.
And even that viable purpose may no longer be necessary, since by next generation that need to eradicate want and need for food is definitely past (let's be honest, the federation probably didn't need Genesis to whip up bread basket world's even in the 23Rd century, it was already a post scarcity society and didnt use money anymore either...but it makes for a nice line in the movie that avoids the scientists looking like a 'because we can' group.) So every possible need for a failed project such as Genesis is behind them.

I did read the beginning of one of the books that had a nice scene where Picard was far enough away that he could literally see the Genesis explosion happen in front of him, in the past as it were. I felt that was a nice hard sci fi touch. Perhaps the modern books could have him experience a thing of sadness watching Armagosa go out from the Happy Bottoms Riding Club window or something, during some dark soul searching moment.

The books are not canon but that sounds interesting. How was Picard in a position to see this?