Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader? (Spoilers)

[Nick Ryder]

Didio might but I doubt it. He's just as bad as Quesada in my book. Send him to Wildstorm division at least, at least his shocking crap is more accepted there, since they're characters no one cares about. I'm really starting to hate Morrison and his idiot legion of fans the more I read his stuff. He's a one trick pony and the roobs just eat it up

 

[ClayinCA]

It will evidently be published in its own hardcover collection come July--->http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Whatever-Happened-Caped-Crusader/dp/1401223036

At 128 pages, I suppose it will have to be collected with something else, but I'm not sure what.

It's basically going to have every Gaiman Batman story - so, this two-parter, a story from Batman: Black & White, his Riddler "Secret Origin" story, and I think one other one.

(Incidentally, concurrent with this release will be a hardcover reprinting of Alan Moore's Superman story "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", which also will contain all of Moore's other Superman work, as well.

 

[Thrall]

Didio might but I doubt it. He's just as bad as Quesada in my book. Send him to Wildstorm division at least, at least his shocking crap is more accepted there, since they're characters no one cares about. I'm really starting to hate Morrison and his idiot legion of fans the more I read his stuff. He's a one trick pony and the roobs just eat it up

They're kind of two sides of the same coin if you ask me. One's too liberal, the other is too conservative. One has too much reverence for their universe. The other couldn't have enough contempt. Didio's too much of a Silver Age habitual jerkoff. Quesada won't be happy until every Stan Lee and Jack Kirby creation is gone and replaced with something more to his vision. It's a fine balance between progress and perfection. One those two just can't seem to get the hang of.

Didio has major faults, but he's not going to let Morrison make Superman go through some mid-life crisis and leave Lois Lane for Poison Ivy or turn Jimmy Olsen gay or have Lex Luther become a drug addict. Unless it was a satire. Then that might be pretty good.

When he's just doing basic superhero stories like All-Star Superman, Flash, or Justice League I usually don't bitch and complain. Infact I think its some of the best written comics out there usually. They're usually simple, digestible fluff everyone and anyone can get into. But when he's doing is equally dreaded and perhaps equally daring "character/concept deconstructions"( New X-Men, Doom Patrol, Fantastic Four 1234, Batman) that is when I usually get pissy. Because it's usually uneccisarry and unjustified IMO. Mostly it's just done to prove to everyone how innovative and awesome he is.

He's an alternative writer that sold out and went main stream. But he still wants to do cutting edge stuff for it's own sake, so we end up with stuff like his Batman run.

 

[Nick Ryder]

Honestly I only liked PARTS of his All Star Superman line, I liked the Lois as Superwoman story, that's one of the few issues of that I actually bought, but its the exception not the rule.

Deconstruct characters because YOU want to... then fuck off. Go to Image or some other company. Make GOOD comics that honor the character AND their history both recent and past, and then you've got my money.

 

[Thrall]

Honestly I only liked PARTS of his All Star Superman line, I liked the Lois as Superwoman story, that's one of the few issues of that I actually bought, but its the exception not the rule.

I agree. It's overrated.

Deconstruct characters because YOU want to... then fuck off. Go to Image or some other company. Make GOOD comics that honor the character AND their history both recent and past, and then you've got my money.

I've been saying that for years. It's time to put The Watchmen to pasture.

 

[Nick Ryder]

Watchmen is fine, its characters we never met before and their whole canon is IN the whole story, so that's apples and oranges. But some of the shit Morrison's done to established characters with rich back stories and pre-existing issues, is inexcusable. Why not just make a new character and do this to them? I hated OMD, just the whole concept of it is stupid. Why would Mephisto give a flyin' monkey's ass if Peter is happy?

I think if JoeQ were to be disposed of, the next EIC should re-retcon that story out of existance, have Mephisto be defeated and Pete and MJ are re-united... and BABY May comes back when Aunt May dies. Then we can feel like Spider-Girl will actually happen. If in a slightly altered form eventually.

If they really wanted a single spider-man going through college and struggling, I would have just had Pete step to the side and have a new guy wear the webs. But then do we REALLY need 2 of the SAME style Spider-Man comics? We've got Ultimate to do that for us. I'd even love to see Spider-Man mature into an almost Cap like figure in the MU. I know in the mid 90s during some crossovers that other younger heroes really looked up to Spider-Man and respected his tactics and battleplans. Read some of the now classic Bagley era stuff, Spidey was really a mature character. He was still struggling but he was certainly not doubting his skills as a hero. Now he's back to the way he was in the early 80s. Boo.

I'd love to see Pete and MJ as a sort of team of 'toubleshooters' for whatever HAMMER morphs back into, be it SHIELD or something else. MJ as an actress could be an interesting spy and we know she can kick some ass. Maybe it would revitalize her character, instead of this super-model that sits at home worrying if her peter comes back alive.

That's how you 'update' a character. You acknowledge their growth. You build them up. You don't tear them down and leave them down. You tear them down to build them up. These deconstructionists forget that. Their good at tearing down, but leave the rebuilding to someone else.

 

[Thrall]

Watchmen is fine, its characters we never met before and their whole canon is IN the whole story, so that's apples and oranges. But some of the shit Morrison's done to established characters with rich back stories and pre-existing issues, is inexcusable. Why not just make a new character and do this to them? I hated OMD, just the whole concept of it is stupid. Why would Mephisto give a flyin' monkey's ass if Peter is happy?

I think if JoeQ were to be disposed of, the next EIC should re-retcon that story out of existance, have Mephisto be defeated and Pete and MJ are re-united... and BABY May comes back when Aunt May dies. Then we can feel like Spider-Girl will actually happen. If in a slightly altered form eventually.

If they really wanted a single spider-man going through college and struggling, I would have just had Pete step to the side and have a new guy wear the webs. But then do we REALLY need 2 of the SAME style Spider-Man comics? We've got Ultimate to do that for us. I'd even love to see Spider-Man mature into an almost Cap like figure in the MU. I know in the mid 90s during some crossovers that other younger heroes really looked up to Spider-Man and respected his tactics and battleplans. Read some of the now classic Bagley era stuff, Spidey was really a mature character. He was still struggling but he was certainly not doubting his skills as a hero. Now he's back to the way he was in the early 80s. Boo.

I'd love to see Pete and MJ as a sort of team of 'toubleshooters' for whatever HAMMER morphs back into, be it SHIELD or something else. MJ as an actress could be an interesting spy and we know she can kick some ass. Maybe it would revitalize her character, instead of this super-model that sits at home worrying if her peter comes back alive.

That's how you 'update' a character. You acknowledge their growth. You build them up. You don't tear them down and leave them down. You tear them down to build them up. These deconstructionists forget that. Their good at tearing down, but leave the rebuilding to someone else.

OMD didn't shock or offend me as much as most. Well, it did offend me but I just didn't see why everyone felt so betrayed. I expected something stupid like that. After they spent almost a year trying to get them broken up, it shouldn't come as a shock. Then there was exposing his secret identity, killing off Eddie Brock, and of course my personal favorite - Gwen Stacy pityfucking Norman Osborne. Which JMS only wrote because Quesada made him, btw. So with OMD Joey Q got to keep all the stuff he loved(Gwen The Whore) and ditch the stuff he hated(Pete's marriage, Lee's continuity and vision).

 

[Capt_Piett]

"killing off Eddie Brock"

Actually, Brock isn't dead. See New Ways To Die for the full story.

 

[Nick Ryder]

But the whole Gwen the whore thing really bothers me, She was the good girl. She was the pure, demure, sweet one. MJ was the one that I could have seen pityfuck say Harry. But Gwen and Norman... that's just... sick. Its little wonder that Stan Lee was basically let out of his lifetime contract with Marvel, if I was Stan I'd be mad as hell at that little punk.

JoeQ needs to go. What classic character will he fuck with next? DeFalco needs to come back. Hell I'd even accept Bob Haras and I really disliked his direction but at least he didn't fuck with the whole universe like JoeQ is doing. Send JoeQ back to Marvel Knights and let him play in a limited playground again and keep him the hell away from the mainline.

But this is a Batman thread .... so back on topic

Morrison is a hoser that will hose the rest of the DCU and Dildo will say its 'boosting sales' yeah right. Let's deconstruct the rest of the DCU so that modern characters are so completely disliked and trashed that a neo silver age is the best option! Gah what a lame ass concept. I don't mind seeing some Silver Age here and there and its interesting how they've been sort of retconning it into the modern, but that's what Crisis and Zero Hour were supposed to do, GET RID OF THE OLD SILVER AGE! Now we've got 52 universe. Gee... that was SO much better than maybe 3 or 4 different Earths.

DCU and MU should just merge to be the FU

 

[CaptainCanada]

I think if JoeQ were to be disposed of, the next EIC should re-retcon that story out of existance, have Mephisto be defeated and Pete and MJ are re-united... and BABY May comes back when Aunt May dies. Then we can feel like Spider-Girl will actually happen. If in a slightly altered form eventually.

Very unlikely. Dislike for Spider-Man being married is widespread among the creators and editorial staff, and has been almost since it happened. Getting rid of married-Spidey was the goal of both the Clone Saga and the '99 Mackie/Byrne reboot (both of which sucked, so perhaps something might have been drawn from that, but obviously not). Bob Harras, John Byrne, Alex Ross, Fabian Nicieza, Mark Waid, etc. have all voiced dislike of it for years (Nicieza, actually, who's currently at DC, has said similar things about Superman). The draw to the childhood dynamic is strong (so, perhaps, whenever the 90s generation of fans is in charge, you'll see that come back).

 

[Nick Ryder]

Then children of the late 80s early 90s UNITE! Let us storm the offices of Marvel and DC and set things right!

 

[coolghoul]

Back to the Caped Crusader.

I just finished reading the trade hardcover for this. First of all, Andy Kubert's art is pretty awesome. I would have hated if they would have messed it up. He draws Batman as he was drawn in different eras - short pointy late-50s, the Bob Kane long-curved pointy etc.

But let's continue on with the story. Bruce is present 'in spirit' along with a female presence at a funeral service. Different members of the audience speak up about how *they* killed Batman. Selina Kyle says she killed Batman. The Alfred storyline (already mentioned in the first post) is effing awesome to read/view - especially the transformation to the Brian Bolland Joker. You get an origin classic shot too (Bruce as a child sitting with his parents lying dead) and there are "flashbacks" to various memorable versions of Batman including a small scene from Year One where the Swat team is just entering the derelict house where Batman is hiding behind the staircase.

Anyway - spoilers follow ---


It turns out the female presence is Martha Wayne. Bruce protests that he doesn't believe in God and so he doesn't believe in heaven/hell. Martha tells him "You don't get Heaven or Hell. Do you know the only reward you get for being Batman? You get to be Batman." And then you to end the story you have this awesome shot of the Batsignal transforming into a pair of hands - it's a doctor delivering a baby boy to Martha Wayne (a modern Martha Wayne - looks like a current hospital setting).

It seems to suggest that the reward for Bruce being Batman is that he will get to be Batman again. This kinda ties into another thread we have going on about what will happen to Bruce Wayne when he "comes back" from the dead or whatever limbo he is in. Right now Dick is being Batman in the DC books. However, if this story is "supposed" to be believed then Bruce Wayne can't be anything but the Batman. It's his reward for him being the Batman. Dick is and will always be "playing" the role of the Batman. The real Batman is Bruce and the real Bruce is the Batman. It has been so and will ever be thus.

I think it's a fitting way to write this kinda story for Batman.

Thoughts?

 

[coolghoul]

Hate to follow up to my own post - but I just re-read the book and by now I'm a fan.

It was masterfully done. The weird funeral with the "I killed the Batman" guilt running thru everybody's minds. The idea of an "ending" book for a character's run in comics, where the character is told that he can rest "for now" but he will again get to be the character soon. Then the "Good night, Good bye" panels, followed by the rebirth. The Bat's conversation with Martha Wayne...

Lovely circular setup.

I strongly recommend this one. And no previous Batman experience necessary.

 

[byron lomax]

I read this recently and thought it was an okay meta-story with some lovely art, no more, no less. So it didn't exactly blow me away, although I loved the story Alfred told at the funeral. Such a cool idea.