Indeed, I remember the part where they bring in the robot clone of Spock all too vividly.
What you did or didn't like about NEM....
- Thread starter Joel_Kirk
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Indeed, I remember the part where they bring in the robot clone of Spock all too vividly.
That's exactly how I take the ending too. Looking at the series Data downloaded the memories of his daughter, but he didn't suddenly become her. From what he said in that episode that she so enriched his life he couldn't let her slip into oblivion without keeping a part of her with him, just like a part of Data is now with B4. He'll become his own android with his own experiences and there is also a part of Data and even Lal that live on in him.
I think the point people make of Nemesis isthat of wasted potential. If you're going to bring the Romulans into a movie, why bother is the pointless Picard-Shinzon plot? Just make it about Romulan- Federation conflict, and let the good times roll. This was not the way for the TNG cast to bow out.
Couldn't agree more. But personally, I still think that everything in the movie that isn't directly tied to Shinzon is great. There's a lot of good to be found...the problem is that none of it is in the main plot.
^It must have all fallen down that bottomless pit in the lower decks of the ship. You know, the one that got the Reman Viceroy and almost got Riker.
Dear lord, that bugs me so much. It's just...gha! I've long accepted that as a weird Star Wars stylistic thing since they're everywhere in the SW-verse apparently, but not on UFP starships! Especially since it was Deck 29 of a 24-deck ship already. A bottomless chasm that goes down forever on a deck so low that it doesn't exist...or something.
I think first and foremost (to me anyway), the core problem of this movie, was that it was a tad to long, perhaps by about a half hour or so. I think this might perhaps be simply due to the pacing of the movie, but for a long while, even with leaving the current plot of the movie as is, I've felt it was a tad to long. I also feel that the wrong scenes were deleted, for instance there was a scene between Picard and Data that just screamed to have been included, and explicitly stated the "family" that is the TNG crew.
Moving on...
The Likes
Romulus Intro (The entire thing, the planets/systems, the senate, etc...)
Seeing a couple Romulan/Reman ships that didn't look cheaply put together (the movie look of the ships were far better then the series)
Picard & Rikers farewell scene
Enterprise-E on the big screen
Remans (the Romulan's dirty little secret...)
The Dislikes
Data dying (isn't it seemingly everyone's?)
Shinzon (It just wasn't well executed)
Theres more, but eh..
Moving on...
The Likes
Romulus Intro (The entire thing, the planets/systems, the senate, etc...)
Seeing a couple Romulan/Reman ships that didn't look cheaply put together (the movie look of the ships were far better then the series)
Picard & Rikers farewell scene
Enterprise-E on the big screen
Remans (the Romulan's dirty little secret...)
The Dislikes
Data dying (isn't it seemingly everyone's?)
Shinzon (It just wasn't well executed)
Theres more, but eh..
I think that Nemesis is an underrated Star Trek film. But like everything else in our fandom, when the bandwagon dislikes something for whatever reason, we are more likely to emphasize it's weaknesses. The opposite can also be said about Star Trek XI. Plot holes through the roof, but it made lots of money and restarted the franchise, and so the majority ignores the glaring issues with that film.
I am not saying Nemesis is perfect, far from it. However, this film has strengths that other films lacked. If it wasn't for CIRCUMSTANCE (franchise fatigue, HEAVY competition etc) I think that many would be singing a different tune.
1. The film felt like a feature film. It was "bigger" than an episode, and I could feel this when watching it.
2. The film took risks and demonstrated character progression. This film did NOT feel like a two part episode. The passage of time was acknowledged. People moving on, Data dying.... etc
3. This was IMO the best Star Trek battle in the history of the franchise.
I could live without B4 and the scene on Kolarus. However I view the last 40 minutes of this film as absolutely fantastic.
Think about an alternate scenario. If Nemesis and Insurrection were swapped, just imagine the hate that Insurrection would receive. What I am saying is that Nemesis flopped and will forever carry with it a negative stigma, which is too bad, because I cared far more for closure of these characters than I ever will "kewl" Trek of 2009.
I am not saying Nemesis is perfect, far from it. However, this film has strengths that other films lacked. If it wasn't for CIRCUMSTANCE (franchise fatigue, HEAVY competition etc) I think that many would be singing a different tune.
1. The film felt like a feature film. It was "bigger" than an episode, and I could feel this when watching it.
2. The film took risks and demonstrated character progression. This film did NOT feel like a two part episode. The passage of time was acknowledged. People moving on, Data dying.... etc
3. This was IMO the best Star Trek battle in the history of the franchise.
I could live without B4 and the scene on Kolarus. However I view the last 40 minutes of this film as absolutely fantastic.
Think about an alternate scenario. If Nemesis and Insurrection were swapped, just imagine the hate that Insurrection would receive. What I am saying is that Nemesis flopped and will forever carry with it a negative stigma, which is too bad, because I cared far more for closure of these characters than I ever will "kewl" Trek of 2009.
I don't necessarily emphasize the bad stuff for Nemesis, it's a pretty good movie in some aspects (such as Riker and Troi finally tying the knot) while in other's it kind of just fell flat, and wasn't executed that well (Shinzon's motives against Earth), A lot of the gripe is people complaining of continuity issues, with some of it justified, and some I could probably relent and say it's not.
In short, the idea behind Nemesis was pretty cool, as was some of the moments in the film, but there's a ton of issues where a minor reworking (or basic knowledge of the franchise, what the hell is it with people and wanting to separate a movie about people who had their own series, from said series?) here and there couldn't have fixed many of the perceived issues (in all honesty, I don't expect everyone to have intimate knowledge of the franchise, but really, you should know whose an alien and whose not when your the writer and/or director) but over all, the movie had some good moments.
In short, the idea behind Nemesis was pretty cool, as was some of the moments in the film, but there's a ton of issues where a minor reworking (or basic knowledge of the franchise, what the hell is it with people and wanting to separate a movie about people who had their own series, from said series?) here and there couldn't have fixed many of the perceived issues (in all honesty, I don't expect everyone to have intimate knowledge of the franchise, but really, you should know whose an alien and whose not when your the writer and/or director) but over all, the movie had some good moments.
Improve NEM.
1) No offense to Tom Hardy - who I like - but they should have picked an actor who looked more like Picard in "Tapestry".
2) Stewart plays Shinzon by the final act of the film.
3) The dune-buggy scene makes little sense. They'd use a shuttle and fly vertically to safety at the first sign of approaching primitives. But to keep it on the ground, how about a hovercar, like the one in "All Good Things..."? The aliens chasing them would still need to be more advanced to pose a threat...say latter 21st century Earth, but I see them with unusual, alien, touches where they're more advanced in some ways and less in others...also helps keep their primitive menace. They were also kind of lizard "Mad Max"es , so maybe this is an irradiated post-apocalyptic world.
4) Better soundtrack.
5) The Romulan capital city of Ki Baratan more like the mat painting during the series run - a vast ancient metropolis stretching tall proud spires and mega-structures as far as the eye can see. It was settled around 2000 years ago or something, so there's plenty of time for growth. I see it more but not quite Coruscant-like, keeping the stone buildings and trees and statues, but spreading them far and deep. Taller buildings with pads for hovercars surrounding a vast valley of a more ceremonial government sector, with the senate at the center where the camera slowly zooms in on. Statues and spires everywhere, but more the closer to the senate you get.
6) No B-4. If Data dies, let him die.
7) Have the Scimitar just be the new huge Romulan flagship (like the Neg-var was the huge new Klingon flagship) that Shinzon, as praetor, now has at his disposal. Don't need to explain how slave laborers created a ship it would take decades to engineer, billions to build, and some snazzy artists to design.
8) Data don't sing.
9) Worf keep an ambassador and visiting for his friend's wedding. No silly being late for work and bumping his head on the bunkbed scene.
10) Thaloron what?
11) No space-Nosferatu. Make the Remans something else. They could be anything...an assortment of aliens from throughout the Star Empire being used as slave labor, Romulan criminals or citizens who couldn't pay their taxes, the original inhabitants of the double worlds that the Romulans enslaved once they got there, original inhabitants they enslaved and intermingled with (a la the Sith) to explain the forehead TNG Romulans from the smooth TOS ones.
1) No offense to Tom Hardy - who I like - but they should have picked an actor who looked more like Picard in "Tapestry".
2) Stewart plays Shinzon by the final act of the film.
3) The dune-buggy scene makes little sense. They'd use a shuttle and fly vertically to safety at the first sign of approaching primitives. But to keep it on the ground, how about a hovercar, like the one in "All Good Things..."? The aliens chasing them would still need to be more advanced to pose a threat...say latter 21st century Earth, but I see them with unusual, alien, touches where they're more advanced in some ways and less in others...also helps keep their primitive menace. They were also kind of lizard "Mad Max"es , so maybe this is an irradiated post-apocalyptic world.
4) Better soundtrack.
5) The Romulan capital city of Ki Baratan more like the mat painting during the series run - a vast ancient metropolis stretching tall proud spires and mega-structures as far as the eye can see. It was settled around 2000 years ago or something, so there's plenty of time for growth. I see it more but not quite Coruscant-like, keeping the stone buildings and trees and statues, but spreading them far and deep. Taller buildings with pads for hovercars surrounding a vast valley of a more ceremonial government sector, with the senate at the center where the camera slowly zooms in on. Statues and spires everywhere, but more the closer to the senate you get.
6) No B-4. If Data dies, let him die.
7) Have the Scimitar just be the new huge Romulan flagship (like the Neg-var was the huge new Klingon flagship) that Shinzon, as praetor, now has at his disposal. Don't need to explain how slave laborers created a ship it would take decades to engineer, billions to build, and some snazzy artists to design.
8) Data don't sing.
9) Worf keep an ambassador and visiting for his friend's wedding. No silly being late for work and bumping his head on the bunkbed scene.
10) Thaloron what?
11) No space-Nosferatu. Make the Remans something else. They could be anything...an assortment of aliens from throughout the Star Empire being used as slave labor, Romulan criminals or citizens who couldn't pay their taxes, the original inhabitants of the double worlds that the Romulans enslaved once they got there, original inhabitants they enslaved and intermingled with (a la the Sith) to explain the forehead TNG Romulans from the smooth TOS ones.
I don't dislike that Data died, but the way how he died. The movie is a mess of plot holes and idiotic decisions made by the characters that lead to one of the main character's death, it's just stupid.
A scene which I liked. Suited the "funnier/cute" Worf from DS9 at that time, when he was married and happy with Jadzia and fought battle with babysitting and stuff, in contrast to being the most badass warrior in the quadrant.
@Arpy
1) or just have Stewart play him. That would've been best, I think.
4) You are a crazy person, this is obviously not possible
6) Which is exactly what happened. Again, there is NOTHING in Nemesis that suggests that B-4 will replace Data. If memory serves, they said it wasn't possible.
9) There's nothing to suggest that he WASN'T just there for the wedding and got taken along for the ride since he was there.
10) They explain that in the movie.
1) or just have Stewart play him. That would've been best, I think.
4) You are a crazy person, this is obviously not possible
6) Which is exactly what happened. Again, there is NOTHING in Nemesis that suggests that B-4 will replace Data. If memory serves, they said it wasn't possible.
9) There's nothing to suggest that he WASN'T just there for the wedding and got taken along for the ride since he was there.
10) They explain that in the movie.
This point is (IMO, anyway) quite absurd, as the soundtrack is brilliant - one of the only good things about the crapfest that is Nemesis.
The rest of it is pretty good, though.
You misunderstand. There was no reason for Spiner to play a double role. Mirror Spock didn't show after Spock's death - it would have been disgusting.
There's also nothing there to say that Jesus Christ himself was the priest conducting the ceremony. It's not about that WASN'T there there but what was.
I understand that. But there wasn't a need for it at all. Yet another fanciful particle (they could have used any of a dozen already canon) for a cliche superweapon that wasn't needed at all.
I listed a few ideas off the top of my head (certainly not a real dissection of the movie) and invite others to list some of theirs. They could be entirely contradictory to mine. Just list a few.
This point is (IMO, anyway) quite absurd, as the soundtrack is brilliant - one of the only good things about the crapfest that is Nemesis.
The rest of it is pretty good, though.
Oh come on, Orac...that cheesy 80's synthesizer chord for the Romulans? May I quote James Earl Jones, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"
P.S. Thanks, USS Bones. Nice avatar.
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