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What you did or didn't like about NEM....

The B4 story could have been left out.

That's also one of the main problems with this film's plot.

If I understand this correctly...somehow, somewhere, somewhen, Shinzon comes upon a Soong-type android. It's explicitly stated that he didn't build it; it was in fact built by Soong. Then somehow he learns that this android looks exactly like a crew member on Picard's ship. He then comes up with a plan to use this android to gain access to the Enterprise's computers. So somehow Shinzon needs to actually get B4 onto the Enterprise. A little convoluted plan, but so far so good.

So...

Shinzon breaks up B4 into five or six parts, buries the parts all over an incredibly hostile planet with incredibly hostile natives, making it incredibly hard and time-consuming for Picard to collect all the parts while being shot at by the natives.

Huh?

I thought the whole point was for Shinzon to get B4 onto the Enterprise. So why make it extremely difficult for Picard to do this? Furthermore, why didn't Shinzon just sneak B4 onto the Enterprise once the ship reached Romulus? Why did he even bother wasting time with that other planet? (Answer: so we could have this extremely stupid and unnecessary dune-buggy scene.) So, Shinzon, what if Picard wouldn't have been able to find all of B4's pieces that you wasted your time hiding, or what if the Enterprise didn't happen to be right near that planet? Your B4 plan wouldn't have worked. What if one of the natives killed Picard? Then you wouldn't get his blood. (And it was pretty clear that the natives weren't working for Shinzon, or intentionally missing when they were shooting at the Argo, although in retrospect that might have at least made a bit more sense of this senseless plan.)

None of this makes any sense!
 
Liked:

The music
Riker avenging the violations of his wife - as a husband, that really resonated. Actually, Riker came off the best in this one. He always should have gotten the action material: it's why he was created.
Riker and Toi - married, finally.
Action - I love action. And the planet stuff, whcih everyone hates, is really well edited.
The sound effects - no kidding, the hand phasers sounded really tough.
The pacing of the last 45 minutes. Really nicely orchestrated.

Disliked:
Shinzon - guy made NO sense. At all. Real Romulans would have just vaporized him instead of sending a clone child into dilithium mines.

Worf: total pussy. Seriously, all he does is bitch, scrape a mechanical hand off his foot, press phaser buttons really boringly, and likes Romulans.

Picard: who IS this guy masquerading as Picard? Off character from his first scene onward, he's a jokey guy at the wedding, a guy with a mid-life need for speed on the planet, and a man of no action when Shinzon dies. Just stands there as the clock ticks. And why does he care about Shinzon like this? Because he learned that he would be an evil prick if he grew up mining dilithium with a bunch of ugly aliens and never getting laid? How is this a "whew, lucky fate spared me" sort of situation? Not to mention the whole "hey, let's assemble this mystery android on the way to Romulus."

Admiral Janeway. Nuff said.

B-4 - been said also.

Self destruct: note to Picard - self destruct is more effective if you sent it off when you are ATTACHED TO THE BAD GUY'S SHIP. Not when you pull away.

Let me also go on record in saying that, even with all of its flaws, I love Nemesis, while I agree the story is crap. All of the Next Gen films are way off the beam in quality compared to the series in general. Personalities are all wrong, the stories are too "action movie" and there are horrible plot holes in each one. So, why do I give bad stories like Nemesis a pass? Because it was fun. It made me laugh, it was exciting, decently acted, had an outstanding underscore. The TNG films were these weird, pumped up, almost cookie-cutter films, ground out with indifference by Rick Berman and his cronies; TV writers who had no idea how to mount a feature film. Nemesis, for its faults, actually feels like a movie rather than a bloated TV episode. It's also the only one of the four to have a writer and director who had experience in features. Apparently, not enough to be good at their jobs, but still…

The real problem with the later films is that there were too many cooks in the kitchen. We had Rick Berman, who slavishly played it safe and never took chances, sticking religiously to "Roddenberry's Vision" while forgetting that the best of Trek was also done by others (Harlan Ellison, Norman Spinrad, Gene Coon, DC Fontana, Harve Bennett, Nick Meyer, etc.). Then Paramount insisted that Earth be threatened in some manner, in order to give the audience something to relate to (because this is OBVIOUSLY a problem Star Wars had which Paramount wanted to avoid). Finally, Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner got story approval. Actors need to stay the F away from writing. This is what killed Trek 5.

More importantly, writers need to avoid the "wouldn't be cool" syndrome. Such as…

Wouldn't be cool if Picard drove a jeep with a gun on the back like in The Rat Patrol?

Wouldn't be fun to have the Enterprise ram another ship?

Wouldn't be awesome to have a hole blown in the bridge, sucking a guy out?

Wouldn't it be fantastic if there were 45 minutes of space ship battles?

Wouldn't be great if Picard and Data had parallel stories about their duplicates?

Wouldn't be amazing if we just took the script to Wrath of Kahn and reworked it enough so we wouldn't have to give credit to Nick Meyer?

You know, the classic movies gave a lot more screen time and respect to Sulu, Chekov and Uhura than TNG movies ever gave to Dr. Crusher. This and the pussification of Worf all helped to make the TNG movies mere bastardizations of the series upon which they were based.

Yet, I look at them like a hillbilly dad looks at his inbred children: he isn't proud of them, wishes they came out better, and everyone looks at them weird, but he loves all of them.
 
You know, the classic movies gave a lot more screen time and respect to Sulu, Chekov and Uhura than TNG movies ever gave to Dr. Crusher. This and the pussification of Worf all helped to make the TNG movies mere bastardizations of the series upon which they were based.

Exactly. And all one had to do to get inspiration for a good series of TNG films is to elaborate on the events from TNG season 7 and "All Good Things..."

1. A burgeoning relationship between Picard and Crusher.

2. A love triangle between Riker, Worf and Troi resulting in each character's alienation toward each other.

3. Picard facing the possibility he might contact some alzheimer's-type disease.

4. The characters gradually moving apart to form families, command other ships, or retiring.

5. Data exploring what it's like to be more human (and I don't mean cracking dumb jokes, laughing goofily and saying curse words).

6. Geordi possibly getting together with Leah Brahms and delving into new technology for his blindness (and someone else could even play the part for all I care; I don't even remember the name of the woman who played her before).

7. Worf's continuing struggle between his life in Starfleet and his duty to the Klingon Empire.
 
2. A love triangle between Riker, Worf and Troi resulting in each character's alienation toward each other.

Didn't Riker and Worf agree to always be buddies when Picard told them of their possible future? Plus, with Worf's move to DS9 and what happened there, not much to do with this other than have a wedding scene in a movie.

Sure, one off alternate reality Worf, no big deal, but Worf and Troi getting together was always a big WTF to me anyway.
 
I agree with basically all that has been said above, about the bad characterisation, the idiotic desert planet mystery android thing, moron!Picard, Worf on board the Enterprise...

...but the worst was that wannabe villain. He wasn't troubled and deep and complex, he was just horribly and annoyingly emo. Quit the whining, bitch, for fuck's sake. Sheesh.
 
- Primitive Starfleet dune-buggy.
- Lame-ass weapons from said dune-buggy. The size of that phaser canon on it you'd think it coulda blowed up half the valley.

I'm going to stop there. I bet I could literally think of a thousand of these if I tried. And I'm really trying not to think of the ones that really matter.

...Space-Nosferatu...jesus fucking christ.
 
Swear to god, every time someone complains about the buggy (which is frequently), all I can think is YOUR TEARS SUSTAIN ME.
 
I liked the character stuff with the old crew. The actors were really trying to make a good movie.
THe wedding was nice to see after all these years. I liked Picard's toast.

I actually liked that Data died. I think it was appropriate for the character.

I didn't like the used and re-used cliche of anther Soong android.
 
I think it's a very good film. I like that it's dark and sombre, and it feels cinematic, which many of the others just don't. Shinzon's also quite an engaging character, the space battle's great, and that opening in the Romulan senate stunned me when I first saw the film. Certainly not what I expected, and it's nice to be surprised by Trek (rather than the tedious by the numbers INS).
 
I think it's a very good film. I like that it's dark and sombre, and it feels cinematic, which many of the others just don't. Shinzon's also quite an engaging character, the space battle's great, and that opening in the Romulan senate stunned me when I first saw the film. Certainly not what I expected, and it's nice to be surprised by Trek (rather than the tedious by the numbers INS).
I'm largely in agreement with this.

I think that, of the four TNG films, Nemesis is the one that shows the most ambition. It's not always successful in that ambition, because it's chained to some baffling storytelling choices. (Brent Spiner, I'm looking at you.) But there seems to have been some genuine effort with Nemesis to tell something of larger scope, whereas the three preceeding films were television-scale.
 
I don't see what's engaging about Shinzon. The character's premise was okay, but his motivations were shady and he was something of a whiner. Imo of course.
 
Like:

-- The final battle
-- The crew getting ready for battlestations
-- The ideal/concept of the Remans.
-- Data's death (not a Data or Spiner fan, had my hopes up it was the end of the character)
-- Showing the crew getting ready to split up and move on to lives outside the Enterprise.

Dislike

-- Picard clone
-- Data clone
-- Cop out at the end with Data's death.
-- Yet another villain bent on nuking Earth
-- Scimitar (felt to fanboyish)
-- Dune-buggy chase and escape.
 
I'd say calling Shinzon's motivations shady is being kind. Hypocritical sounds more like it.


Kindness is me. :p

I actually agree with you. He doesn't make sense as a villain. He's just a whiny, emo brat who should really, really get over himself already.
 
I think Shinzon was a great character who came across as genuine. A lot of good lines too.

Also, I very much like the climax. I recall being awestruck just after Data dies. It was quite something. Picard goes aboard, fights Shinzon, and the scene as Shinzon slides up the spike as he tells Picard how he's glad they'll be together now and Picard's face. I found it all quite affecting. Then Data says goodbye and...well I'm not expressing myself very well here, but I think it was a great climax and worked well. Nothing nearly as engaging in Insurrection.
 
If by "genuine" you mean "crazy and ultimately suicidal" then I agree. :p

As someone who saw TWoK in theaters and likes to think he knows a good death scene when he sees one, I have to say I found Data's death incredibly unaffecting. It was -awful- that they laid the groundwork for a return via B4 at the beginning of the film, and especially with the transfer of Data's memories (which begs the question of whether the crew learned anything from their experiences with Lore). All they needed was for Data to say, "And if I ever die, now you have someone who can replace me!" Ugh.

It probably doesn't help that by this movie I was really tired of Picard and Data always being featured to the detriment of the other characters.
 
I think Shinzon was a great character who came across as genuine. A lot of good lines too.

Also, I very much like the climax. I recall being awestruck just after Data dies. It was quite something. Picard goes aboard, fights Shinzon, and the scene as Shinzon slides up the spike as he tells Picard how he's glad they'll be together now and Picard's face. I found it all quite affecting. Then Data says goodbye and...well I'm not expressing myself very well here, but I think it was a great climax and worked well. Nothing nearly as engaging in Insurrection.

I...do not agree even a little about Shinzon, but I definitely agree about Data's death. And maybe it's just me, but wasn't there something about how B4's mind couldn't be as advanced as Data's? It was a line that either Data or Geordi toss in right after they assemble him. I never took the ending as "AND NOW DATA CAN BE REPLACED" as much as he would be a legacy of Data's of sorts, since some of him lived on in B4.
 
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