What would you do?

[Discofan]

Let's say that like Picard in that episode with Weird Al... You know, weird alien...

You're trapped by a powerful alien who says that he's gonna kill half of the crew, but unlike in the episode where everything always turns favorably to the heroes, you have absolutely no means of escaping this alien whatsoever and you're practically sure that this alien is way beyond your capacity to defend yourself or to attack him in return (like a really evil Q or something). What would you do? Would you blow yourself up like Picard not knowing if it'll accomplish anything, aside from... killing everybody... or admit that you're in way over your head and put at least the question to a vote by every member of the crew... after all it's their lives that are at stake, not just yours.

I could have made this a poll but I'd rather let everyone explain themselves...

Personally, I definitely wouldn't have decided unilaterally to kill the crew, for no reason. If there is one, I'd certainly be anxious to hear it. I mean we had wars where people were decimated and yet the survivors didn't sacrifice themselves in "retaliation". Sounds stupid when put it this way, doesn't it?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

He's the Captain, he absolutely can't put it to a vote. It's his call.

But he wasn't throwing away the crew's lives for no reason. He was betting that if Nagilum knew his experiment had ended, he would let them go rather than see all of them killed. He was taking back the power as a negotiation tactic.

 

[somebuddyX]

"Jean-Luc, blow up the damn ship."

 

[BillJ]

I am going to slowly back out of the thread...

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[Qonundrum]

This reminds me of "Pen Pals" where Riker taught young ensign Crusher on making decisions; Picard would seek advice from his staff, but once he made a command decision everyone followed it.

Granted, if Nagilum is going to wander around impersonating various crewmembers for a cheap thrill, then the captain has to go at it alone. Like me in a singles' bar after last call.

So, yeah, arbitrary or not, 50% is a nice even number to round up to 100%. Nagilum was going to start experimenting on people - like telekinetically roasting Crusher's conveniently-timed bathroom break buddy who showed up right on cue between scenes yet Wes didn't have diabeetus, thus rendering his pee break a little suspect... (Maybe Wes was Nagilum all along, having traveled back in time after The Traveler(tm) took him away and re-educated him?)

Also, imagine what the survivors who didn't get experimented on might feel... you're one of the 50% that wasn't used as a kinky experiment but know half the ship was. That's going to last a while. Every single day, right when wanting to eat or sleep or get busy, that one thought of that one crewmember who's now dead is going to pop in at just the perfect time to ruin the moment. So, yeah, I'd guess there's no harm in starting the countdown so everyone gets blown.

And best of all, all self-destruct mechanisms ought to act like this:

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More on the setup leading to the self-destruct:

Spoiler

A maintenance skutter went haywire and reprogrammed the ship. Lister was told to do nothing until Rimmer and Kryten could repair the damage. So the first thing Lister does was, well:

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Now that's good comedy. The episode was "Bodyswap". Best seen in its 30-minute entirety...

 

[Mojochi]

you have absolutely no means of escaping this alien whatsoever and you're practically sure that this alien is way beyond your capacity to defend yourself or to attack him in return

That was exactly the case for Picard too. It only worked out favorably for our heroes, because he intended to deny Nagilum the ability to experiment on any of them, which made the whole prospect of experimenting on them moot.

after all it's their lives that are at stake, not just yours.

They agreed to stake their lives, to the chain of command, when they enlisted. One of the likely stipulations of that enlistment would've probably been to not stand idly by while 500 comrades are subjected to lethal experimentation, least of all when acting to deny the antagonist anyone, on which to do so, poses some degree of potential that it might not altogether.

Whatever the antagonist's intention for wanting to kill half the crew, it's more than likely not going to be fulfilled if there isn't one around for it to do so. So it's in your best interest to, if nothing else, deny it that fulfillment, in hopes that doing so will cause it to lose interest.

If on the odd chance it doesn't, then at least you weren't actively complicit in the murder of half your own people

 

[Discofan]

He's the Captain, he absolutely can't put it to a vote. It's his call.

But he wasn't throwing away the crew's lives for no reason. He was betting that if Nagilum knew his experiment had ended, he would let them go rather than see all of them killed. He was taking back the power as a negotiation tactic.

What if Nagilum had said: "You want to blow yourself up? Go ahead, I'll just capture another vessel." What would killing the whole crew accomplish then? As I said the episode is rigged to make Picard seem like a reasonable person but forget that the deck is stacked and you'll see that he's just insane. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response would be to drop a bomb on the whole of them and kill everyone? Do you think a president who would do that would still remain president for very long?

 

[Discofan]

.... then at least you weren't actively complicit in the murder of half your own people

Yeah, so instead of being complicit in the murder of half of your people, you become the murderer of the whole lot of them!!! Yeah, that seems reasonable.

Burn the village in order to save it!

 

[Mojochi]

Yeah, so instead of being complicit in the murder of half of your people, you become the murderer of the whole lot of them!!! Yeah, that seems reasonable.

Burn the village in order to save it!

Being complicit in murder isn't the same as being responsible for deaths, in the line of duty.

 

[The Wormhole]

Is there a reason this had to be here instead of the TNG forum?

 

[Silvercrest]

What if Nagilum had said: "You want to blow yourself up? Go ahead, I'll just capture another vessel." What would killing the whole crew accomplish then? As I said the episode is rigged to make Picard seem like a reasonable person but forget that the deck is stacked and you'll see that he's just insane. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response would be to drop a bomb on the whole of them and kill everyone? Do you think a president who would do that would still remain president for very long?

For your analogy to work, the President would be one of the hostages. So no, not very long.

 

[Discofan]

For your analogy to work, the President would be one of the hostages. So no, not very long.

An analogy doesn't have to be perfect. You might as well say that for my analogy to work the president's name should be Picard.


An analogy is something similar but by no means identical. So nice try, but try again.

 

[Discofan]

Is there a reason this had to be here instead of the TNG forum?

This is not about TNG but about Star Trek morality in general. The fact that this example is from TNG is purely accidentaL

 

[Discofan]

Being complicit in murder isn't the same as being responsible for deaths, in the line of duty.

Indeed, being the sole responsible is worse.

 

[Mojochi]

Indeed, being the sole responsible is worse.

Death in the line of duty is something they all volunteered to potentially face. If you weigh that as worse than murder, I'm afraid no further reasonable discourse will be of any use

 

[JirinPanthosa]

What if Nagilum had said: "You want to blow yourself up? Go ahead, I'll just capture another vessel." What would killing the whole crew accomplish then? As I said the episode is rigged to make Picard seem like a reasonable person but forget that the deck is stacked and you'll see that he's just insane. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response would be to drop a bomb on the whole of them and kill everyone? Do you think a president who would do that would still remain president for very long?

Didn't say it wasn't a risk. But on the other hand, what if Nagilum killed half the crew, then pulled in another ship because he knew that the crew wouldn't fight back? Because that's what Picard taught him. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response is to give them whatever they want with no guarantee they'll even let any of them live? They'll just take more people hostage.

And what about the survivors, dealing with the mental health problems the rest of their lives from sitting by while his friends were gruesomely killed?

It's always the better risk to take control.

 

[Discofan]

Didn't say it wasn't a risk. But on the other hand, what if Nagilum killed half the crew, then pulled in another ship because he knew that the crew wouldn't fight back? Because that's what Picard taught him. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response is to give them whatever they want with no guarantee they'll even let any of them live? They'll just take more people hostage.

And what about the survivors, dealing with the mental health problems the rest of their lives from sitting by while his friends were gruesomely killed?

It's always the better risk to take control.

I'll say what Garak basically said to Sisko (In The Pale Moonlight) who later practically agreed with him: "A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for saving lives."

I am paraphrasing of course.

 

[Oddish]

What if Nagilum had said: "You want to blow yourself up? Go ahead, I'll just capture another vessel." What would killing the whole crew accomplish then? As I said the episode is rigged to make Picard seem like a reasonable person but forget that the deck is stacked and you'll see that he's just insane. What if terrorists take people hostage and start killing them one by one, do you think a reasonable response would be to drop a bomb on the whole of them and kill everyone? Do you think a president who would do that would still remain president for very long?

Neither would a president who gives into terrorist demands. Picard's actions were in effect a refusal to give Naguilum what it wanted. Luckily for all, Naguilum was a logical being, and chose to let them go.