Which novel was that?
What would New Human culture have become like, if the producers kept the concept from the TMP novel?
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
- Start date
Which novel was that?
Collateral Damage by David Mack.
I've always been really fascinated by this actually.
The full quote is:
Admiral Kirk’s preface: My name is James Tiberius Kirk. Kirk because my father and his male forebears hauled the old custom of passing along a family identify name. I received James because it was both the name of my father’s beloved brother as well as that of my mother’s first love instructor. Tiberius, as I am forever tired of explaining, was a Roman emperor whose life, for some unfathomable reason, fascinated my grandfather Samuel.
This is not trivial information. For example, the fact I used an old fashioned male surname says a lot about both me and the service to which I belong. Although the male surname custom has become rare among humans elsewhere. It remains a fairly common thing among those of us in Starfleet. We’re a highly conservative and strongly individualistic group. The old customs die hard with us. We submit ourselves to starship discipline. Because we know it is made necessary by the realities of deep space exploration. We’re proud that each of us has accepted this discipline voluntarily. And doubly proud when neither temptation nor jeopardy is able to shake our obedience to the oath we have taken.
Some critics have characterized us in Starfleet as primitives. And with some justification. In some ways, we do resemble our forebears of a couple of centuries ago more than we do most people today. We’re not part of those increasingly large number of humans who seem willing to submerge their own identities into the groups to which they belong. I am prepared to accept the possibility that these so called “new humans” represent a more highly evolved breed capable of finding rewards in group consciousness that we more primitive individuals will never know.
For the present, however, this new breed of human makes a poor space traveler and Starfleet must depend on us primitives for deep space exploration. It seems an almost absurd claim that we primitives make better space travelers than the highly evolved, superbly intelligent, adaptable new humans. The reason for this paradox is best explained in a Vulcan study of Starfleet’s early years. During which vessel disappearances, crew defections, and mutinies had brought deep space exploration to a near halt. This once controversial report diagnosed those mysterious losses as being caused directly by the fact that Starfleet’s recruitment standards were dangerously high. That is Starfleet Academy’s cadets were then being selected from applicants having the highest possible test scores on all categories of intelligence and adaptability. Understandably, it was believed that such qualities would be helpful in dealing with the unusually varied life patterns which starship crews encountered during deep space exploration. Something of the opposite turned out to be true. The problem was that sooner or later starship crew members must inevitably deal with life forms more evolved and advanced than their own. The result was that these superbly, intelligent and flexible minds being sent out by Starfleet could not help but be seduced eventually by the higher philosophies, aspirations, and consciousness levels being encountered.
I have always found it amusing that my academy class was the first group selected by Starfleet on the basis of somewhat more limited intellectual agility. It is made doubly amusing of course by the fact that our five year mission was so well documented due to an ill-conceived notion by Starfleet that the return of the USS enterprise merited public notice. Unfortunately, Starfleet’s enthusiasm affected even those that chronicled our adventures. We were all painted somewhat larger than life. Especially myself. Eventually, I found that I had been fictionalized into some sort of modern Ulysses. And it has been painful to see my command decisions of those years so widely applauded. Whereas the plain facts are that 94 of our crew met violent deaths during those years. And many of them would still be alive if I had acted either more quickly or more wisely. Nor have I been as foolishly courageous as depicted. I have never happily invited injury. I have disliked in the extreme every duty circumstance which has required me to risk my life. But there appears to be something in the nature of depicters of popular events which leads them into the habit of exaggeration. As a result, I became determined that if I ever again found myself involved in an affair attracting public attention, I would insist that someway be found to tell the story more accurately.
As some of you well know, I did become involved in such an affair. In fact, an event that threatened the very existence of Earth. Unfortunately, this has again brought me to the attention of those who record such happenings. Accordingly, although, there may be many other ways this story is told or depicted, I have insisted that it all should be set down in a written manuscript which would be subject to my corrections and my final approval. This is that manuscript. Presented to you here as an old style printed book. While I cannot control other depictions of these events that you may see, hear, and feel – I can promise that every description, idea, and word on these pages is the exact and true story of V’Ger and Earth as it was seen, heard, and felt by. – James T. Kirk
_____________________________________________________
I am intrigued, also, by the notion that some humans (despite their intelligence) are not cut out for space exploration. That their loss of self caused them to be easily seduced by alien ideologies and they would "go native" essentially. It almost seems like this is an endorsement (or simply an acknowledgment by Roddenberry) that the "proud" to be human types were necessary to maintain a space fleet that could explore on humanity's behalf.
In fact, I'm surprised this wasn't seen more often in Trek. It was always silly to me that the crew ran into omnipotent aliens and didn't blink an eye. As if such a thing was mundane. That's not even including all the hyper-powerful aliens they run into that are on a completely different level. I wouldn't be surprised that more people disappear into these other cultures or worship aliens as deities.
The full quote is:
Admiral Kirk’s preface: My name is James Tiberius Kirk. Kirk because my father and his male forebears hauled the old custom of passing along a family identify name. I received James because it was both the name of my father’s beloved brother as well as that of my mother’s first love instructor. Tiberius, as I am forever tired of explaining, was a Roman emperor whose life, for some unfathomable reason, fascinated my grandfather Samuel.
This is not trivial information. For example, the fact I used an old fashioned male surname says a lot about both me and the service to which I belong. Although the male surname custom has become rare among humans elsewhere. It remains a fairly common thing among those of us in Starfleet. We’re a highly conservative and strongly individualistic group. The old customs die hard with us. We submit ourselves to starship discipline. Because we know it is made necessary by the realities of deep space exploration. We’re proud that each of us has accepted this discipline voluntarily. And doubly proud when neither temptation nor jeopardy is able to shake our obedience to the oath we have taken.
Some critics have characterized us in Starfleet as primitives. And with some justification. In some ways, we do resemble our forebears of a couple of centuries ago more than we do most people today. We’re not part of those increasingly large number of humans who seem willing to submerge their own identities into the groups to which they belong. I am prepared to accept the possibility that these so called “new humans” represent a more highly evolved breed capable of finding rewards in group consciousness that we more primitive individuals will never know.
For the present, however, this new breed of human makes a poor space traveler and Starfleet must depend on us primitives for deep space exploration. It seems an almost absurd claim that we primitives make better space travelers than the highly evolved, superbly intelligent, adaptable new humans. The reason for this paradox is best explained in a Vulcan study of Starfleet’s early years. During which vessel disappearances, crew defections, and mutinies had brought deep space exploration to a near halt. This once controversial report diagnosed those mysterious losses as being caused directly by the fact that Starfleet’s recruitment standards were dangerously high. That is Starfleet Academy’s cadets were then being selected from applicants having the highest possible test scores on all categories of intelligence and adaptability. Understandably, it was believed that such qualities would be helpful in dealing with the unusually varied life patterns which starship crews encountered during deep space exploration. Something of the opposite turned out to be true. The problem was that sooner or later starship crew members must inevitably deal with life forms more evolved and advanced than their own. The result was that these superbly, intelligent and flexible minds being sent out by Starfleet could not help but be seduced eventually by the higher philosophies, aspirations, and consciousness levels being encountered.
I have always found it amusing that my academy class was the first group selected by Starfleet on the basis of somewhat more limited intellectual agility. It is made doubly amusing of course by the fact that our five year mission was so well documented due to an ill-conceived notion by Starfleet that the return of the USS enterprise merited public notice. Unfortunately, Starfleet’s enthusiasm affected even those that chronicled our adventures. We were all painted somewhat larger than life. Especially myself. Eventually, I found that I had been fictionalized into some sort of modern Ulysses. And it has been painful to see my command decisions of those years so widely applauded. Whereas the plain facts are that 94 of our crew met violent deaths during those years. And many of them would still be alive if I had acted either more quickly or more wisely. Nor have I been as foolishly courageous as depicted. I have never happily invited injury. I have disliked in the extreme every duty circumstance which has required me to risk my life. But there appears to be something in the nature of depicters of popular events which leads them into the habit of exaggeration. As a result, I became determined that if I ever again found myself involved in an affair attracting public attention, I would insist that someway be found to tell the story more accurately.
As some of you well know, I did become involved in such an affair. In fact, an event that threatened the very existence of Earth. Unfortunately, this has again brought me to the attention of those who record such happenings. Accordingly, although, there may be many other ways this story is told or depicted, I have insisted that it all should be set down in a written manuscript which would be subject to my corrections and my final approval. This is that manuscript. Presented to you here as an old style printed book. While I cannot control other depictions of these events that you may see, hear, and feel – I can promise that every description, idea, and word on these pages is the exact and true story of V’Ger and Earth as it was seen, heard, and felt by. – James T. Kirk
_____________________________________________________
I am intrigued, also, by the notion that some humans (despite their intelligence) are not cut out for space exploration. That their loss of self caused them to be easily seduced by alien ideologies and they would "go native" essentially. It almost seems like this is an endorsement (or simply an acknowledgment by Roddenberry) that the "proud" to be human types were necessary to maintain a space fleet that could explore on humanity's behalf.
In fact, I'm surprised this wasn't seen more often in Trek. It was always silly to me that the crew ran into omnipotent aliens and didn't blink an eye. As if such a thing was mundane. That's not even including all the hyper-powerful aliens they run into that are on a completely different level. I wouldn't be surprised that more people disappear into these other cultures or worship aliens as deities.
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...It might also yield returns to the humans to have “ins” on many non-human cultures that accepted the extremely intelligent humans into them. Instant scouts/long-term deep researchers.
The ESP stuff is a bit woo that passed muster in 60’s but less now. Basing a vision of humanity on the idea that some of us are telepathic doesn’t work for me. There’s not really something there to strive for for us.
I think the humans depicted in the first two seasons of TNG were more adult and interesting than those later. They were a bit too pompous in the case of Picard or joyless in that of Riker, but they seemed more truly from a different culture/time. I think Trek was trying to talk to a more mature audience there and more to minors later.
I don’t know that these New Humans have a foot to stand on though. They sound like they could just have a personality disorder — like codependency/others. Or hubris — how smart can you be if you’re seduced by the unfathomable information that someone else is smarter than you? How the heck did you pass the psych tests to become an astronaut?
The ESP stuff is a bit woo that passed muster in 60’s but less now. Basing a vision of humanity on the idea that some of us are telepathic doesn’t work for me. There’s not really something there to strive for for us.
I think the humans depicted in the first two seasons of TNG were more adult and interesting than those later. They were a bit too pompous in the case of Picard or joyless in that of Riker, but they seemed more truly from a different culture/time. I think Trek was trying to talk to a more mature audience there and more to minors later.
I don’t know that these New Humans have a foot to stand on though. They sound like they could just have a personality disorder — like codependency/others. Or hubris — how smart can you be if you’re seduced by the unfathomable information that someone else is smarter than you? How the heck did you pass the psych tests to become an astronaut?
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Wait until we install the nano-computers in our brain!
Very true but the implication is they aren't serving as a go-between or researchers. They are literally abandoning their old world/species and merging with this new one. Some more akin to James Cameron's Avatar with the hero in that story.
Yeah - I did wonder why it was never revisited after TOS. I guess it's like you said - that it faded out in the Trek universe. Considering some aliens evolve into higher beings - I don't think it's that much of a stretch for humans to slowly do that, including telepathy.
I think certain aspects of them were interesting, but they were a bit too dull. They were too hard to relate with and came across as smug and pompous rather than empathetic and wise (from the many mistakes Mankind made).
Plus, they were simply too "alien" from us as they lived in a perfect world. In one TNG episode - they imply that no one watches television because it's a waste of time and not productive. But they have holodecks ... I mean I guess it is more productive to move around in a holographic setting than setting and watching a screen, but it didn't really match.
It's why I prefer DS9's outlook on humans. We got past a lot of our current primitive hatreds/practices but we're not so far removed from where we are today in other aspects. I agree with Sisko and Quark's view on humanity that it is easy to be a saint in paradise and that we are only so "perfect" because our bellies are full and holodecks are running. Take that away - will we all remain perfect?
I think it's more that they have abandoned "individualism" (for whatever reason) and see each themselves as simply a sentient being. Instead of seeing themselves as a human or seeing themselves as Russian/French/etc. Since they removed themselves of their identities - it made it easier to be seduced by aliens that have some aspects of philosophy and culture they enjoy.
Someone in this thread made a joke that they are the equivalent of weeaboos. I think that is pretty accurate. Plus, if god-like aliens appeared, there is no doubt in my mind a chunk of humanity would rush to worship them. Or if the aliens have technology that allows humans to access higher planes of existence - I can easily see humans leaving Starfleet to experience that on a permanent basis. Not just when their ship is in the sector.
Without starting the whole DS9/TNG conversation all over again, I think the idea that the DS9 humans were just like us in space is as fantasy as the hope that we’ll be telepathic in the future. One of the things that dates TOS is when they show their contemporary sensibilities between considered futurisms. Heck, even with the telepathy there’s an in there as @Charles Phipps notes with the assistance of future techs. But it’s unlikely that future humans will be just like “us” given that “we” are ever changing too.
I don’t know, it’s not my American-ness that make me a individual; it’s my individualism that latches on to the idea of Americanism? I could be wrong.
I believe they’re called Bajorans.
That’s a low blow. But I could start another thread in the DS9 forum about how the show dropped the ball on portraying the huge Reformation that should have happened after the discovery of the less than divine nature of the Prophets. I’m actually angry that so much good storytelling wasn’t had at, especially storytelling that might have assisted us today in some of our discussions concerning Islam.
It's not so much that they are exactly like us, but they're not as removed from us as TNG claims. At least - I don't believe that to be the case. While we are shifting and changing as a society - we're not that different from humans 1000 years ago much less 300. We still wage war, we still damage the planet, we still hate each other for arbitrary reasons, etc. etc. etc. I really doubt by the 24th century - even in a post-WWIII/Eugenics War/First Contact with aliens society - I don't think humans still won't engage in frivolous activities or have hatred for certain aliens. The only difference is we'll be a bit wiser about it. Ala O'Brien with his PTSD from fighting Cardassia. "It's not you I hate, Cardassian. It's what I've become because of you."
In regards to telepathy - sure, technology could give us that one day. But Miranda Jones seemed to be a natural telepath in TOS and nothing was made of it. It honestly seemed like TOS wanted to imply some humans were telepathic. Although, no other (Earth) humans are telepathic from what I can recall. Not without help of an alien or being half alien ala Troi. So I guess they did want to drop that idea.
I just don't think it's that wacky of an idea in a universe with Q, Warp 10 evolving us into alien salamanders, Harry Mudd riding space whales, and evolved dinosaurs leaving Earth and not leaving behind a single shred of their civilization.
True, but that was an example. Some people drop the said "labels" as they feel there is too much temptation to become ultra-attached to said identity and all the trappings that come with it. I think that is part of what the "New Humans" are going for. However, some of them will end up craving some type of identity and that makes them more susceptible to being seduced by alien philosophies as they have adopted a very generic identity marker for themselves.
I believe they’re called Bajorans.
Yep! I just think some humans would have been doing the same.
You're right. I love DS9 but it was annoyingly dull how there seemed to be no agnostic/atheist Bajorans. There was a lot of potential for a story about a crisis of faith amongst Bajorans, but they sadly didn't go there. Although, I personally suspect Kira knew the truth ...
Re: Psychic powers
@Arpy
One thing I've enjoyed pointing out with my wife is the fact that Star Trek has had an immense influence on the shape of our technology. Flip-phones, touchscreen computers, automatic doors (yes, those too), interest in space as a whole, and handheld computers have all been influenced by Star Trek.
Psychic powers are pretty much purely a thing that Joseph Campbell was obsessed with and never should have lasted as long as they did but in the future, we could see them made by technology (or in Star Trek via aliens).
I think that was the bait and switch actually. The "point" of Star Trek is that the Federation effectively find God ala The Undiscovered Country, shrugs it off, and is confused when the people find out that it is MORE faith affirming than the opposite.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it. The truth is, "Yes, our gods are real and live above us." It's been criticized among some Trek fans because it is an endorsement of a religion but it's an interesting question of, as Captain Pike would say, "What is the difference between a God and an alien that is godlike?" For people like Jake Sisko and Michael Burnham, the difference is obvious. For Pike and Sisko himself, the issue is more nebulous.
But yes, I wish Michelle Forbes had done one episode where Ensign Ro (atheist) has a talk with Kira Nerys (fundamentalist terrorist).
"How can you believe a bunch of aliens are gods?"
"BECAUSE THEY'RE RIGHT THERE!"
Mind you, as a religious person and fan of theoretical physics, it's fascinating to imagine what a religion would be like that is scientifically justified.
@Arpy
One thing I've enjoyed pointing out with my wife is the fact that Star Trek has had an immense influence on the shape of our technology. Flip-phones, touchscreen computers, automatic doors (yes, those too), interest in space as a whole, and handheld computers have all been influenced by Star Trek.
Psychic powers are pretty much purely a thing that Joseph Campbell was obsessed with and never should have lasted as long as they did but in the future, we could see them made by technology (or in Star Trek via aliens).
I think that was the bait and switch actually. The "point" of Star Trek is that the Federation effectively find God ala The Undiscovered Country, shrugs it off, and is confused when the people find out that it is MORE faith affirming than the opposite.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it. The truth is, "Yes, our gods are real and live above us." It's been criticized among some Trek fans because it is an endorsement of a religion but it's an interesting question of, as Captain Pike would say, "What is the difference between a God and an alien that is godlike?" For people like Jake Sisko and Michael Burnham, the difference is obvious. For Pike and Sisko himself, the issue is more nebulous.
But yes, I wish Michelle Forbes had done one episode where Ensign Ro (atheist) has a talk with Kira Nerys (fundamentalist terrorist).
"How can you believe a bunch of aliens are gods?"
"BECAUSE THEY'RE RIGHT THERE!"
Mind you, as a religious person and fan of theoretical physics, it's fascinating to imagine what a religion would be like that is scientifically justified.
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I think people are a lot more different than you're suggesting. Chimpanzees also wage war, damage the planet, and hate each other for arbitrary reasons too, I think. Elephants choose to get high off certain plants and even insects have farms and keep livestock. I think even a lot of humans alive today (in my own city, let alone across the planet) present more differently than humans on Trek.
I wonder about that thinking about the gender conversation that's happening how in the culture. Labels can be helpful if they describe you instead of you trying to fit into them. I worry for people who define themselves as not male or female because they don't fit into the limited (idiotic) definitions or ideals we set at any given time for what it means to be a man. I'll never be Arnold Schwarzenegger, or Thor, but I still define myself as a "man." I could be wrong.
Who knows. Maybe in the future we'll all be on keto, discover gravity doesn't exist, and discover that some of us are on the spectrum of telepathic ability? (Though, I'm betting on the tech.)
What do you mean on the Undiscovered Country? I understand a silly number of people also believe the Earth is flat and cling tighter to their beliefs the more others try to prove to them otherwise.
How is it an endorsement? If anything, I'd think it a criticism.
A lot. There's nothing supernatural about a really powerful alien. They're not watching you masturbate with anthropomorphic judgement awaiting the judg'e'ment day.
There could have been a civil war among the Bajorans (how's that for drama and "conflict") regarding their divinity and a series-long "Reformation of the Church" with sects similar to Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, various Protestant ones, and less religious "spiritual" and fully-atheist ones too. All alien-ified with the Eastern tinge of the Bajorans. And hopefully further – they are aliens after all. If there were Islamic elements too, that'd have been awesome.
What I'm saying is that I think DS9 isn't that the Bajorans were wrong but, in fact, were just straight up right about their faith being literally true. And Starfleet dealing with it. It's not universally true but it'd be like a cult to Q. He's not a nice god but he's close enough that saying he's not is splitting hairs.
Mind you, it's similar to the Vulcan religion. You don't need anything supernatural about it to be literally true and that, in fact, misses the point. Mind you, Western religions are much more about the supernatural vs. Eastern ones as plenty don't actually require the supernatural to exist.
That's a very materialist scientific view of the supernatural that falls apart because if something is proven to exist then it's not viewed as supernatural. Except that plenty of RL people believe that their faiths can be studied. Why we have Catholic miracle boards and people doing tests on Buddhist monk neurology.
The Bajorans believe the Prophets are literally there and....are.
I personally never understood that. DS9 didn't really endorse religion. If anything - it followed in the Trek tradition of deconstructing religion. Apollo, the alien at the center of the galaxy, Trelane, Q, the Picard. The Prophets were just another line of aliens that were worshiped.
I agree there is little difference between a god (in the nebulous sense) and an alien that can alter reality. The only really difference is one gets a narrative attached to it and the other does not.
Now that I think of it ... you're right. Ro was a non-believing Bajoran. She didn't even get to be on DS9. I wonder if Bajorans in Starfleet didn't believe or were more secular versus the ones in the militia.
Different from what? From humans centuries ago? Of course - be cause we live better lives (very generally speaking) and have a lot of history to draw from. But if that is taken away - we still behave the way we did in the past. Some of us at least. All you have to do is look at all the same mistakes we're making as a society.
Of course - because we don't have replicators, holodecks, sonic showers, medicine that can cure most disease, and knowledge that we are not alone in the universe.
I'm not saying we're carbon copies of each other. I'm saying what makes us human yesterday, today, and in the 24th century won't really change. Especially not in a few hundred years.
That's why - for me at least - I think DS9 (and VOY with Equinox) is much more truthful about our "enlightenment". DS9 doesn't say that TOS/TNG were wrong about Mankind. They just said it's a lot easier to be that way when you are in paradise.
The debates we're having about identity in today's age kind of fits with Kirk's log. The individualist vs. collectivist. Kirk could be explaining how this debate we're having now has manifested into two types of human philosophical thought. Kirk is the rugged individualist who follows "archaic" traditions like his surname for example or Chekov's extreme nationalism of the Soviet Union. Then there are other humans on Earth that don't behave anything like that.
Sadly - this is not really a thing as we don't see anything like two types of humans in Trek. I wish I could read where Roddenberry was going with that concept and why it was never pursued.
The potential is limitless with Trek.
I find it odd they never pursued such an obvious plot line. They even toyed with it from the perspective of the Dominion. With some Jem'Hadar and Vorta questioning of the Founders were actually gods. Strange they never played with that plot line with the Bajorans.
I think Deep Space Nine took a somewhat non-confrontational look at religion or perhaps balanced. The idea being that it played an important role in society (or at least some societies) and people's lives even if some people were assholes about it (Kai Winn). Which is a contrast to Roddenberry's somewhat Arthur C. Clark view (or Seth MacFarland's) that religion is something humanity will outgrow.
Part of what I did like and the show never really went headlong into was the fact the Bajorans were irritated with the Federation's casual assumption of cultural superiority and rationalism--which is shown to be somewhat limited when dealing with the unknown.
Mind you, I felt Sisko shouldn't have become Space Jesus.
Part of what I did like and the show never really went headlong into was the fact the Bajorans were irritated with the Federation's casual assumption of cultural superiority and rationalism--which is shown to be somewhat limited when dealing with the unknown.
Mind you, I felt Sisko shouldn't have become Space Jesus.
Tuvok was assimilated in Voyager, along with their entire senior staff.
They were fine the next week.
Tuvok was assimilated in Voyager, along with their entire senior staff.
They were fine the next week.
True, forgot about that.
Then again, Picard of course was nowhere near the überhuman level that Janeway and her crew achieved so of course he was bound to struggle more than they....
I really doubt that, because other telepathic species like the Betazoids apparently have no troubles with joining starfleet.
I remember there was an interesting question whether Tuvok is just a typical Vulcan with a storm of passion he's suppressing or if he's actually coping with serious mental illness, both including violent fits and depression in equal parts.
And the Old Humans blow.
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