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What were the Prophets doing while Keiko 2.0 was plotting their genocide?

Captain Jerk

Captain Jerk

Lieutenant
Red Shirt
Were they on vacation? Just taking a nap? Or simply indifferent to whether they exist or not? Do they have a bit of a death wish maybe, like that Q who wanted to die after having his fill of immortality?

Why wasn't The Sisko sent a vision to warn him about the impending danger?

Could it be as simple as the Prophets knew how everything would turn out, that Miles would foil her plans? "No need to lift a finger here this time, our boy O'Brien's got this one. I'm tired, I'm going back to bed."

If it is the case that they had foreknowledge (which they should given they exist across all time apparently), then why did the demon think she could "pull a fast one" on them? Why did any of the Pah-wraiths at any point in the series think they could get the upper hand on the Prophets? (Just a simple case of constant willful ignorance or denial fueled by arrogance?)
 
The Prophets were the worst part of DS9, the ultimate deus ex machina to get the story to do anything and it was never that profound for the most part. Attempting to wrest some sort of logic, consistency or pattern with them is pointless as it doesn't exist by design. DS9 was best when it was about interpersonal interactions and political intrigue.
 
Legate Duhmar said:
The Prophets were the worst part of DS9, the ultimate deus ex machina to get the story to do anything and it was never that profound for the most part. Attempting to wrest some sort of logic, consistency or pattern with them is pointless as it doesn't exist by design. DS9 was best when it was about interpersonal interactions and political intrigue.
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Didn't care too much for the Prophets themselves. However, I liked the idea of this Starfleet captain being maneuvered (at first reluctantly, later willingly) into the position of a religious icon and having double loyalties (to both Starfleet and to Bajor). That made it possible to explore some new dimensions and storylines.
 
Captain Jerk said:
Were they on vacation? Just taking a nap? Or simply indifferent to whether they exist or not? Do they have a bit of a death wish maybe, like that Q who wanted to die after having his fill of immortality?
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I mean, they're up against something identically powerful to themselves.

That seems like an odd complaint.
 
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Legate Duhmar said:
The Prophets were the worst part of DS9, the ultimate deus ex machina to get story to do anything and it was never that profound for the most part. Attempting to wrest some sort of logic, consistency or pattern with them is pointless as it doesn't exist by design.
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Perhaps you're right. I guess I personally enjoy twisting myself into a pretzel trying to make sense of things that don't make sense. :cool:


Ragitsu said:
The fact that "The Prophets" could be affected by mortal technology detracted from their hitherto purported divine status.
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That's the thing, they never actually were affected since the "weapon" was re-directed. The Keiko demon believed it would kill them, and Rom said the same, but as beings that can "see things coming" a mile away because of their "Time Lords" status I don't see how one could ever actually kill them. They are in a position of supreme advantage -- thus maintaining a divine status in that way. That said, in the Reckoning, the Kira Prophet seemed genuinely surprised when Kai Winn did what she did, which I don't quite get. Do you know the future or all possible futures/timelines or don't you. Were some of their "powers" or abilities turned off for the sake of a fair fight to decide the fates of Bajoran mortals? Are Prophets and Pah-wraiths alike "bound" by some power higher than themselves, to rules that they have to "play the game" by? (I am reminded of Lost.)


Charles Phipps said:
I mean, they're up against something identically powerful to themselves.

That seems like an odd complaint.
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Can you expand on your thoughts here. Do you mean the Pah-wraiths are equally powerful to the Prophets? We've seen the Prophets alter timelines/history while allowing people to retain memories of the original timelines (performing a "miracle" in a sense since that seems to defy logic), and we've seen them manipulate events in the past to guide people (like Sisko) towards a particular outcome they desired or foresaw out of presumably many possible outcomes. I never got the sense the Pah-wraiths ever did the same. They seemed less powerful, possibly because they were outside of the Celestial Temple and were somewhat "neutered" as a result?
 
Captain Jerk said:
Can you expand on your thoughts here. Do you mean the Pah-wraiths are equally powerful to the Prophets? We've seen the Prophets alter timelines/history while allowing people to retain memories of the original timelines (performing a "miracle" in a sense since that seems to defy logic), and we've seen them manipulate events in the past to guide people (like Sisko) towards a particular outcome they desired or foresaw out of presumably many possible outcomes. I never got the sense the Pah-wraiths ever did the same. They seemed less powerful, possibly because they were outside of the Celestial Temple and were somewhat "neutered" as a result?
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I mean the Pah Wraiths are literally members of the Prophets that have been cast out of the Wormhole to live in the Fire Caves so anything the Prophets can do, the Pah Wraiths can do. It's just that the former are the dominant group because they were the ones who did the kicking out.
 
On what basis do you think this is a problem? The Prophets are described as prophets, beings who understand the future and help Bajorans predict it. They are never, never, NEVER shown to be omniscient, omnipresent or all powerful. They are spatially limited. They need others to do stuff for them outside the confines of the wormhole. They need to be told what is what.
 
Charles Phipps said:
I mean the Pah Wraiths are literally members of the Prophets that have been cast out of the Wormhole to live in the Fire Caves so anything the Prophets can do, the Pah Wraiths can do. It's just that the former are the dominant group because they were the ones who did the kicking out.
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I always got the impression the Pah-wraiths aka "false prophets" lived alongside the Prophets in the celestial temple, and were similar beings but not necessarily identical. Their group never showed any direct on-screen signs of being aware of future events or of manipulating events to ensure a desired outcome the way the Prophets were shown able to do (and did). Other indications the Prophets were stronger include the one-on-one battle in The Reckoning where it was clear the Kira Prophet was about to beat the Jake Pah-wraith before Winn blew it. Also the fact that the Prophets were the ones to expel the Pah-wraiths from the celestial temple and imprison them, not the other way around (although perhaps it was simply that the Prophets outnumbered them as you said). The Pah-wraiths appear to be a poor man's Prophet, the "losers" of the god realm. Not surprising that Dukat chose the losing side, he has a habit of siding with losers. (Peggy Bundy: "Oh it's not his fault. He's just so used to losing.")


trekshark said:
They're non linear so likely knew they'd be ok
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Agree, the issue is that this was not made clear in the story of the episode. In fact not one character brought up the fact that the Prophets were not simple linear beings and should be able to foresee the danger posed by the Keiko demon and take appropriate action if needed. The demon wasn't concerned at all, she only seemed worried about keeping O'Brien in check, as if her "target" (the Prophets) were defenceless and like lambs to the slaughter. And the demon didn't seem to have any "prophetic" ability at all, she seemed just as "linear" as O'Brien and had no real advantage over him. I assume it's because Pah-wraiths either lack all of the same abilities as Prophets, or they were "de-powered" in that specific category of power when they were banished, or perhaps they only have this ability while residing in the celestial temple. All we can do is speculate about the reason, but to me it's clear the Pah-wraiths didn't have all the same abilities.


Bad Thoughts said:
On what basis do you think this is a problem? The Prophets are described as prophets, beings who understand the future and help Bajorans predict it. They are never, never, NEVER shown to be omniscient, omnipresent or all powerful. They are spatially limited. They need others to do stuff for them outside the confines of the wormhole. They need to be told what is what.
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So you truly believe then if it wasn't for O'Brien and Rom, the Prophets would have been destroyed? They are that feeble and defenceless that this one demon who "broke out of jail" could take them all out with her "linear" plan involving linear beings and their technology? Doesn't sound right to me. Plus sometimes the Prophets reached out to Sisko all on their own, while he wasn't inside the wormhole. Giving him warnings and advice and such and they could do this across vast distances (like when he was on Earth). I guess one could argue though Sisko is an exception as he is basically "one of them" and so they are able to "know what he knows" and get information that way. Also their "spirits" were shown to be able to exist and travel about outside the confines of the wormhole like in The Reckoning. When the Prophet left Kira it didn't simply cease to exist or die, it was able to still exist as energy or whatever and fly out of the station. And they were able to imprison the Pah-wraiths outside of the wormhole as well, in the fire caves on Bajor. It's true though they need to take over physical bodies to act in the physical realm. But regardless, they didn't need to be "omniscient" here, as the Keiko demon wasn't acting on some other wormhole far away or doing something that had nothing to do with them -- she was specifically targeting the wormhole and them, surely they would be able to foresee events that directly impact them. No omniscience needed, just the knowledge and abilities already available to them.
 
Captain Jerk said:
That's the thing, they never actually were affected since the "weapon" was re-directed. The Keiko demon believed it would kill them, and Rom said the same, but as beings that can "see things coming" a mile away because of their "Time Lords" status I don't see how one could ever actually kill them. They are in a position of supreme advantage -- thus maintaining a divine status in that way. That said, in the Reckoning, the Kira Prophet seemed genuinely surprised when Kai Winn did what she did, which I don't quite get. Do you know the future or all possible futures/timelines or don't you. Were some of their "powers" or abilities turned off for the sake of a fair fight to decide the fates of Bajoran mortals? Are Prophets and Pah-wraiths alike "bound" by some power higher than themselves, to rules that they have to "play the game" by? (I am reminded of Lost.)
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Dodging a bullet is an impressive feat to be sure, but the fact that the dodge is necessary in the first place indicates an underlying vulnerability.
 
^ they are gods but not invulnerable gods I suppose. Gods in some ways, not others. Although not all gods are supposed to be invulnerable, including in human myths. And Klingon gods were slain because "they were more trouble than they were worth". lol probably how the Prophets felt about the Pah-wraiths right before they booted them. And the Voorta viewed the Founders as gods, even though they knew they weren't invulnerable and could be killed and die (programmed or not they were aware changelings could die since a number of them died during the course of the series) -- so this was not a requirement for "godhood" in the Star Trek universe of alien belief systems.

Another sign they were similar beings but not necessarily identical was the fact that the Kira prophet emitted blue energy while the Jake wraith emitted red. Blue = good, Red = evil. Lol so cliche, and very Star Wars-ish, as was the final confrontation between Dukat and Sisko. I'm surprised Obi-Ben Sisko didn't "sense a disturbance in the Force" in the Keiko episode like he did during the series finale when he was dancing with Kasidy....

Obi-Ben: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced." (lol the millions of voices would have been the prophets themselves in the Keiko episode, or the voices of everyone in the universe being set on fire in the series finale episode -- but replace "millions" with a much bigger number)
 
^ depends on how you define god(s) with a small 'g'. You seem to need them to be all-powerful, all-everything, like the God with a capital G of the bible. Star Trek itself does not adhere to a specific definition. For me, what makes them gods is things like:

1) They have superhuman abilities.
2) They exist as energy or spirit or what have you.
3) They are worshipped or prayed to.
4) They in turn seem to care about the people that worship them.
5) They apparently take these people with them after they die (not definitively shown on-screen but was implied by certain things).
6) And of course Sisko called them gods ("to their faces") and they didn't refute that description.
7) And let's not forget things like "the reckoning", clearly laden with imagery of being a battle between "good" and "evil", the Jake wraith mocking the Kira prophet that her emissary's "faith was wavering", and all that magic spell and incantation stuff, "fire and brimstone", etc, at the end of the series with the "devil"/opponent to the true gods.

It's clear the showrunners were going for a bit more than simply wormhole aliens with all this stuff.
 
Captain Jerk said:
3) They are worshipped or prayed to.
4) They in turn seem to care about the people that worship them.
5) They apparently take these people with them after they die (not definitively shown on-screen but was implied by certain things).
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Ha ha the Q don't fit these godly definitions.
 
at Quark's said:
Didn't care too much for the Prophets themselves. However, I liked the idea of this Starfleet captain being maneuvered (at first reluctantly, later willingly) into the position of a religious icon and having double loyalties (to both Starfleet and to Bajor). That made it possible to explore some new dimensions and storylines.
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Agreed, the religious thematic part of the show was interesting, especially Siskos personal relationship with the Bajoran culture as it evolved over the years. What was most interesting about the Prophets was the Greek chorus presentation as its a call back to stage plays and it gave the actors something different to play. However the Prophets got old after a time and the season 7 arc feels largely shoehorned in but so were a lot of things that season that didn't belong.(probably needs a new thread).
 
* They possess a vulnerability; the Q don't possess any vulnerabilities.
* They act through intermediaries; the Q show up and get stuff done personally.
* Their sphere of influence and means of interaction are limited in certain ways; the Q don't seem limited to any region of the universe nor do they primarily communicate in a dreamy extradimensional space while wearing the skins of others.

As I said...the Q are better claimants for godhood.
 
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