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What was wrong with Kirk?

TV history was never "all things are happy at the end".
You even began that with 'Except', because there were exceptions. And even though ST was billed as a 'drama', and could have gotten away with plenty of sad endings (and did), Rodenberry's vision was for a 'bright future', and wanted the audience to always have the feeling that 'the future is better tomorrow', so he wanted his episodes to both teach and give hope. Unfortunately, that means certain directors took that to mean use the 60's-accepted trope of ending stuff with a joke. But it was also a 70's show for one year, and TV became much more creative (thank you, Norman Lear). For example, All in the Family was a comedy, and yet, it handle some very important social issues. Then one of the main characters got raped... in a comedy... in prime time. Nothing like that had been done before. The country was in shock. My parents made me stop watching and leave the room. That was insanely 'ahead of its time' TV back then. So yeah, Kirk can laugh at death in the 60's, and you can have rapes in a comedy in the 70's, because culture is a pendulum that sweeps back & forth constantly. Creativity itself is all about pushing the envelope, always.
 
Yes, but people need mourning too. If someone were to joke at me while I'm in anguish near the still warm body of a friend of mine it wouldn't make me feel any better. On the contrary.

It is why you don’t try to cram two very different eras of TV show into one continuity.
 
Kes the character was only one years old. So yeah, Ocampans age differently, but I could never get the image out of my head of 39 year old Neelix changing a baby's diapers and thinking, "I can't wait to hook up with you next year" (he did hide on Ocampa for that period - he was a military deserter, so him knowing her from birth is not unreasonable).

If I had been there I would have wanted to keep Neelix the hell away from Naomi. :eek:
 
Since I typed that, I read a little more about Ocampans, who go through their 'puberty' stage around 4-5 years old (I thought that was how long they lived, but its actually more like nine years). So basically, Kes wasn't even two yet by the end of the first season - she was halfway to puberty, so in human terms she was about 6. Yup... I had a LOT of problems with that Neelix character. On the other hand, Tucker was born when T'Pol was 30 (she was around 63 when she was assigned to Enterprise), making that an interesting relationship as well. Of course, she never knew him when he was underage, which makes all the difference in the world.

Kirk isn't creepy, he just lives in a creepy universe. Don't even get me started on that fart that was in love with Zefram Cochrane.
 
While there are things from back in the day that might give one pause today the flip side is there are things today people get their shorts in a knot over I think are totally ridiculous.

While I can get cross over shit from the right there is stuff from the far left that is fucking nuts. I have never thought of myself as a tough guy, but there are a lot of those of the younger generation today that come across as ignorant little pussies.

I don’t want to drag this too far off topic, but the other day the subject of the ‘70’s classic series All In The Family came up at work. The show was controversial in its day. I highly doubt it could be made today. It was quite something to watch Archie and Michael arguing over politics, gun control, race, abortion, Vietnam, Watergate, and practically anything. It could be enlightening as well as entertaining.

Someone twenty something at work asserted the show sounded incredibly insensitive. Her actual remark was, “They could be so insensitive back in the day.” This without ever having actually seen an episode.

I can just imagine the howls of outrage from social justice warriors if All In The Family debuted today.

In broad strokes a key point is that blue collar Archie was not actually a bad guy. His head was full of backward ideas he’d grown up with. Along comes his new son-in-law Michael as the long haired Liberal to challenge Archie’s ideas. Archie made some people uncomfortable then. They’d be howling for Archie’s head and for the show to be immediately cancelled today.

A good episode is when Archie got involved with a chapter of the KKK who want to teach some Liberals a lesson with burning crosses. Archie starts to get uneasy, and when he finds out Michael (as well as his daughter and grandson) are targets to be terrorized by the KKK Archie takes a stand in his son-in-law’s defence.

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Man, I should rewatch that series.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.
 
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You even began that with 'Except', because there were exceptions.

The point was that there was no "happy ending" edict in place or trend in 1960s TV. The series I mentioned were just scratching the surface.

And even though ST was billed as a 'drama', and could have gotten away with plenty of sad endings (and did), Rodenberry's vision was for a 'bright future', and wanted the audience to always have the feeling that 'the future is better tomorrow',

Myth more than fact. Have you ever noticed how much death, human (and alien) failing and destruction was a part of TOS? This was not what the saccharine-infused TNG would be (and preached by its supporters). No, TOS reflected the sensibilities of not only the very dark 1960s, but the experiences of writers--some who lived through some of the worst periods of the 20th century, which influenced their creative outlook. Not exactly scripts for the World's Fair exhibits.

"Bright future" did not fit into every TOS story: "The Doomsday Machine" was a tale of mass death, personal guilt / sacrifice and at its end, just surviving. We know what "A Private Little War" was mirroring, and its end was the bleak acceptance of escalating violence to preserve a lost balance thanks to the interference of the other great power, and as Kirk put it, he had to bring more "Serpents for the Garden of Eden". "Balance of Terror" was not walking the "all flags"/ United Nations line at all; while racism was one of its central themes, war, its cost, and the reasoning behind it was a core set of themes, which was not ending with clean solutions wrapped up in tea-drinking faux philosophy, which would have been completely inapplicable. Moreover, the fact such blatant racism existed in the 23rd century proved Roddenberry was not painting the myth so aggressively pushed about the series in the convention & TNG-forward eras.

"Dagger of the Mind" explored issues of medical experimentation/abuse / unethical practice of mind control--that's the happy, hopeful 23rd century. I could list other TOS episodes that stand on a street named something other than "Bright future" but the point is clear about the kind of series TOS was, and that was not "Oh, what a safe, hand-holding, even-tempered universe we live in! Utopia has arrived!"



But it was also a 70's show for one year.

Eh?
 
While there are things from back in the day that might give one pause today the flip side is there are things today people get their shorts in a knot over I think are totally ridiculous.

+1

I don’t want to drag this too far off topic, but the other day the subject of the ‘70’s classic series All In The Family came up at work. The show was controversial in its day. I highly doubt it could be made today. It was quite something to watch Archie and Michael arguing over politics, gun control, race, abortion, Vietnam, Watergate, and practically anything. It could be enlightening as well as entertaining.

AitF in the 1970s was a huge risk and even the first season had a pre-episode disclaimer warning the audience that sensitive topics may be brought up. Indeed, after the fourth season or so, the show became a more generic comedy and toning down the "controversial" stuff... save for sweeps week episodes, of course...

Despite nostalgia over the late-60s/early-70s in the 1990s, it didn't stop a loose sequel from being attempted in 1993: "704 Hauser". It did capture the feel all while jostling different controversial topics and it honestly wasn't any worse or better than the 1970s original. Regardless, audiences balked. The 1970s were indeed a different time, where one could be "flagrant but with a twist" and people would yum it up. Using the same format as a cookie cutter did not work for most, even though the 1993 sequel wasn't any different in tone or spirit. YMMV, of course.

Apart from hand-picked remakes of old scripts played by new actors with original cast members doing cameos - as that happened and people yummed it up - trying the same premise but with new scripts and a jostling of new topics probably would be howled at by many in the audience regardless of age.

Or maybe it is possible to recapture the spirit AND win over audiences with some deft handling.

Someone twenty something at work asserted the show sounded incredibly insensitive. Her actual remark was, “They could be so insensitive back in the day.” This without ever having actually seen an episode.

Ouch. Having to teach the history lesson as to what life was like at the time followed by an episode would be a hard sell. Just watching the old shows could lead to quick misinterpretations and misunderstandings, never mind all the wars and assassinations and stuff going on at the time.

I can just imagine the howls of outrage from social justice warriors if All In The Family debuted today.

The original show did take its time to show Michael (the hippie) as being right, but also took enough time to show he was sometimes wrong (if not unaware of his own irony) as well. Most characters were little different in some ways, just with opposing viewpoints. Actually, IMHO, the only character close to being saint-like was Edith. But she's also the least-exciting character...

Here's an interesting perspective that must have hit big on initial airing:

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In broad strokes a key point is that blue collar Archie was not actually a bad guy. His head was full of backward ideas he’d grown up with. Along comes his new son-in-law Michael as the long haired Liberal to challenge Archie’s ideas. Archie made some people uncomfortable then. They’d be howling for Archie’s head and for the show to be immediately cancelled today.

For a Republican and all that, he was in and supported a union.

Archie definitely made people feel uncomfortable. So did Michael. Depends on the issue. But Archie would more often be seen to change and adapt, whereas Michael wouldn't budge. Even, ironically, when arguing with Gloria on some issues..

Archie's dialogue was so over the top, even for back then. I think it had to be in order for anyone to actually laugh, and generally at him. He still had moments of grounding as he couldn't be cartoonish all the time. And he did grow the most over the years.

The actor, Carroll O'Connor, who was in fact a Democrat, also got death letters. What is it with some people conflating the actor as the character? Do they not know what the word "actor" means?!

In lesser hands, the show would have been a disaster because it is a fine line to do something as controversial yet make it actually be funny instead of constantly angering. O'Connor, Stapleton, Reiner, Struthers, and Evans were perfect casting (and the pilot episodes with different casts often fell flat way too fast because the actors came across annoying rather than engaging.)

A good episode is when Archie got involved with a chapter of the KKK who want to teach some Liberals a lesson with burning crosses. Archie starts to get uneasy, and when he finds out Michael (as well as his daughter and grandson) are targets to be terrorized by the KKK Archie takes a stand in his son-in-law’s defence.

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Man, I should rewatch that series.

It's next on my list and I'll look up that episode first. The show definitely was not afraid to tackle subjects and the actors do a hell of a job to make the balance of comedy and drama compelling.

I recall a powerful episode where someone paints the Nazi symbol on Archie's door as a marker for a hit. It's a great examination of the human condition, especially where violence is concerned. There are so many episodes from the first three seasons... all the characters have their stances, but are layered and given the time to be fleshed out. Lightning was in a bottle for that show, that's for sure.

Oh, I forgot to add: Along with Edith, Lionel was the show's other most level-headed character, but given the snark that no other character could have. They're both my favorites... Amazing balance of characters on the show...
 
^^ Much later Michael loses his job because he protests the building of a nuclear power plant…in the nude. Archie isn’t too upset over the protesting part, but he flips when he learns of Michael’s public nudity. Later Archie comes to accept the courage it took for Michael to take such an extreme stance to stand for something he believes in.

And when Michael feels down because he is out of work with a wife and son to support Archie relates his own somewhat similar past experience. He also reveals he had no one, not a father, to ask for help because his father was not there (having passed away). He then tells Michael that he, Archie, is not gone and that as long as he is around Michael and his family will have help.
 
If you watch the whole series, beginning to end, you'll see something I didn't notice when i watched it with my family live, growing up. Michael was the bigot... Archie was merely ignorant.

Archie was a product of his times. My father talked the same way, and he was as liberal as the come (dated a black girl in the 50's, and marched with Dr. King in the 60's). That was just how people talked. By the time that show was done, my favorite spoke VERY differently, because he realized just how ignorant Archie sounded. Archie had black friends... he wasn't prejudice. He had lots of friends and acquaintances from all walks of life, and the guys at his job he considered his pals (and one was called 'Black Elmo', and there was actually a funny story about that). Mike Stivic on the other hand, actually said, "They can't help stealing, they don't know better", to which the thieves laughed their butts off and said something along the lines of, "well looky here... we got us one of those bleeding-heart liberals". Mike also believed in affirmative action. He had no idea how bigoted he actually was. And in one of the last episodes, after he and Gloria had moved out, he was pissing & moaning to Archie that he got passed-over for a job that he deserved and was perfect for, because they gave it to less-qualified, less-deserving black person, just to "fill their quotas". And in that moment, Archie smiles at Mike, and says, "So you finally get why its not fair, huh?" It was an eye-opener. Norman Leer was a genius and ahead of his time, because he made us look at ourselves and want to 'do better'.

Judging Kirk for his behavior is worse than judging Mark Twain for his verbiage, because at least Twain got to choose his words and actions himself... but both were products of their age. And if you want people to 'do better', then you have to do what Leer did and hold up a mirror to them... calling people names and 'canceling' them on the internet just keeps the hatred going 'round and 'round.
 
calling people names and 'canceling' them on the internet just keeps the hatred going 'round and 'round.
There's a reason why TOS stands out for me as the Trek I go to for examples of improving humanity-it highlights the importance of choice. Kirk's speech about being killers but not going to kill today is powerful not because it calls out humans for their violent nature but because it says that there is a choice. Spock, for all the times I disagree with the coldly logical approach, also demonstrates that there is a way to approach a problem without the passionate name calling McCoy often does.

I get that people are passionate over a lot of topics, especially political ones. But, the idea that you can name call someone in to change is one I find quite laughable.
 
Your thoughts?
I think you're overthinking it and you should just watch the show in the context of the time it was made in. TOS ended an adventure story on a joke, especially when Gene Coon was the showrunner. They weren't trying to say that Kirk was callous or had PTSD, just that he was a resilient guy with a good sense of humor.

Personally, I think Kelvin Kirk and Spock getting all quippy before they destroy Nero's ship (2:33 in the clip below) in ST09 was way more callous than anything TOS Kirk ever did.

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You'd be surprised just how many couples have a decade plus difference between them.
Not really, since my stepfather was 13 years older than my mother.
''All is well"?
Either the denial or acceptance of their loss... Hard to say.
If you're watching TWOK in isolation, it's acceptance because it's the end of the story. Kirk has come to accept his getting older and his friend's sacrifice. At the beginning of TSFS, Kirk is suddenly having a much harder time with Spock's death because his arc in the new movie needs someplace to start.
 
I think you're overthinking it and you should just watch the show in the context of the time it was made in. TOS ended an adventure story on a joke, especially when Gene Coon was the showrunner. They weren't trying to say that Kirk was callous or had PTSD, just that he was a resilient guy with a good sense of humor.

Personally, I think Kelvin Kirk and Spock getting all quippy before they destroy Nero's ship (2:33 in the clip below) in ST09 was way more callous than anything TOS Kirk ever did.

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Agree. I always disagreed with Kirk's action there, although I realize this is a different Kirk who grew up under different circumstances. TOS Kirk showed mercy whether his opponent wanted it or not.

MALTZ: Wait! You said you would kill me!
KIRK: I lied.

TOS Kirk would have worked to save Nero anyway. Mercy is one of TOS Kirk's best qualities.
 
Personally, I think Kelvin Kirk and Spock getting all quippy before they destroy Nero's ship (2:33 in the clip below) in ST09 was way more callous than anything TOS Kirk ever did.
Oof, no. 09 made sense. Some of TOS, and especially TWOK, felt callous. I don't like the 09 ending as much but I get it better than some.
 
I would have felt better about the '09 ending if Kirk didn't fire an entire arsenal at Nero's ship but instead just backed away after saying "you got it" and let Nero just die. Hell, he could have watched with a satisfied look on his face with Spock as the ship broke up and had the whole montage with the music as seen, but without Kirk blowing Nero away when the Red Matter was gonna do it in a few seconds anyway.
 
TOS Kirk would have worked to save Nero anyway. Mercy is one of TOS Kirk's best qualities.
Exactly. ST09 just ended that way because that's how Hollywood typically ends action movies, with the hero making a quip before killing the villain off in heinous fashion. It works for James Bond or a Die Hard movie, but not for Star Trek, IMO.
 
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