What was Deep Space Nine doing during the Destiny trilogy?

[ProtoAvatar]

JD

The characters are fictional, they don't exist. They lack sentience, intelligence, existence and a few other attributes necessary in order to have a 'perspective'.

The only perspective they have is the persective you attribute to them - in other words, your perspective.
Far from being more important than the reader's, 'their own perspective' doesn't even exist.

Spoiler

And from your/the reader's perspective, Vaughn only had his ship for one battle.

You don't have sufficient information to attribute to Vaughn anything specific about his previous captaincy of the ship. Meaning that captaincy is only a few words in a biography long.

 

[BrotherBenny]

PA, we may yet see a Vaughn book in which he is comatose and reliving events from his life in which case we may well see him in command of the ship.

Now that there are other editors in charge of the ST line, we may go back to having DS9 work at its own pace though we'll know what happens to Ezri, Bashir, Kira, Shar and Ro in broad strokes.

I really don't know why you're getting so worked up over this.

 

[flemm]

Now that there are other editors in charge of the ST line, we may go back to having DS9 work at its own pace though we'll know what happens to Ezri, Bashir, Kira, Shar and Ro in broad strokes.

I hope not. The last thing the DS9-R needs is to bounce from one time period to another, from pre-Destiny to post-Destiny and back again. It needs a consistent direction and a change in pacing. Since editorial influence seems rather erratic these days, that probably means a single author taking charge of it, a bit like KB has with Voyager.

 

[shanejayell]

I'm still hoping for a 'Full Circle' like DS9 novel to bridge the gap from the end of Soul Key to the current time period. Maybe staring Ro Laren?

 

[flemm]

I'm still hoping for a 'Full Circle' like DS9 novel to bridge the gap from the end of Soul Key to the current time period.

Something like that could be good. Part of the issue is, I think, pacing. The original DS9-R could tell stories incrementally over the course of many novels because the novels came out frequently and there was a strong editorial presense guiding the overall project.

Now, with novels coming out very infrequently, I think the pace needs to change. Each novel needs to feel like a complete and satisfying narrative in itself, while of course setting up future stories as well. That is what gives a series its sense of momentum and creates anticipation: wow, that was a great story, can't wait for the next installment! The story moves forward, with the sense that more cool things are on the horizon. The DS9-R definitely had this feeling back when Unity, Worlds and Warpath were published. It definitely doesn't have this now. Voyager, on the other hand, now does, thanks to KB.

Reading the DS9 novels in recent years has been an exercise in frustration because stories have been built up only to be adandoned, each novel feels incomplete, and the story overall feels like it has been advancing at a glacial pace, only to suddenly jump forward to a seemingly arbitrary new set of circumstances.

The series needs a creative direction again, which in this era of the editorial revolving door probably means a single author.

Ideally, we would get a set of two or three novels in rapid succession by the same author, as has been the case with Voyager recently.

 

[Christopher]

Now, with novels coming out very infrequently....

That's not actually true, and I told you as much just two and a half weeks ago:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4685637&postcount=68

We had four new DS9 novels and a novella in 2001, four in 2002, four in 2003, one in 2004, two in 2005, one in 2006, one (Mirror Universe novel) in 2007, four in 2008 (counting Terok Nor), two in 2009, and two in 2010. If anything, it seems the "intermittent" stage passed several years ago.

Two a year for the past two years doesn't seem "very infrequent" to me. In fact, it's on the high side of a typical pace for individual series within the Trek novel line.

 

[flemm]

Two a year for the past two years doesn't seem "very infrequent" to me. In fact, it's on the high side of a typical pace for individual series within the Trek novel line.

In its heyday, 4 DS9 novels were coming out per year. No one is expecting a return to that pace, for obvious reasons. Reasonable expectations might be one DS9 novel per year overall, with perhaps some years containing two and some years being skipped (as is for the moment the case for 2011). I think the scope of each individual novel has failed to adjust in relation to that.

If you look at recent DS9 publications that advance the main storyline (basically Fearful Symetry, The Soul Key, Zero Sum Game and part of RBoE), I would argue that they all feel very incremental: they tell part of a story, while largely setting the table for what is to come. The incremental approach worked fine when several novels were coming out per year that advanced the main storyline, but it doesn't work well when the novels come out less frequently.

Similarly, having multiple authors working on the series seems to work less well when there is no stable editorial presence.

If anything, the fact that a bunch of DS9 novels have been published in recent years without revitalizing the series in the slightest underscores my point that the focus and the scope of the individual novels is off-kilter with the realities of the current publishing schedule.

To summarize: publishing DS9 novels will not, in itself, allow the series to regain its sense of momentum and excitement. The approach needs to change, so that each individual novel is exciting and satisfying in itself, because it tells a complete story involving a broad canvas of DS9 characters, while setting the table for future stories and preferably maintaining a coherent creative vision across several novels.

 

[Christopher]

In its heyday, 4 DS9 novels were coming out per year.

Only for the first three years out of the decade it's been around. And keep in mind that was when we were still getting two books a month. The current publishing pace is half that, so if DS9 gets two books a year, that's as good as can be expected (except in the case of a special event like Terok Nor).

Reasonable expectations might be one DS9 novel per year overall, with perhaps some years containing two and some years being skipped (as is for the moment the case for 2011). I think the scope of each individual novel has failed to adjust in relation to that.

But that's exactly what we have already had since 2004. It's hardly a recent development.

If you look at recent DS9 publications that advance the main storyline (basically Fearful Symetry, The Soul Key, Zero Sum Game and part of RBoE), I would argue that they all feel very incremental: they tell part of a story, while largely setting the table for what is to come. The incremental approach worked fine when several novels were coming out per year that advanced the main storyline, but it doesn't work well when the novels come out less frequently.

But you talk about WoDS9 and Warpath as examples of a better approach, even though they were just the same. Olympus Descending in 2005 ended on a cliffhanger that wasn't resolved until Warpath 14 months later. And Warpath only advanced the storyline by one day and ended on a cliffhanger of its own. That was very incremental, and it was 5-6 years ago. The recent books, the books in the past three years, have been much less incremental than those. We got The Soul Key, which brought the arc of the previous few books to a resolution, and then we got two Typhon Pact books that told independent DS9 (or DS9-character) stories that hardly seemed like increments of a serial, but were much more episodic.

So what you're talking about as a new status for the novels is actually the way they were several years ago and aren't anymore.

Similarly, having multiple authors working on the series seems to work less well when there is no stable editorial presence.

That may well be so. But that's not an issue of the schedule or the pacing. You seem to be confusing two different issues, blurring a valid point together with a chronologically flawed assertion.

But we do have a stable editorial presence now, even if it's not a publicized one. There's no reason to assume that there will be any more editorial shakeups in the future. Keep in mind that there haven't even been any books announced yet that have been commissioned or developed under the current editorial regime. Everything that's been announced as coming out in 2011 was commissioned during Jaime Costas's editorial tenure. It's way, way too premature to make any assumptions about what things will be like under the new editor. You know nothing yet about what the plans for DS9 will be in 2012 and beyond. Give the new regime a chance to get started before you jump to the conclusion that it's unviable.

 

[flemm]

But you talk about WoDS9 and Warpath as examples of a better approach, even though they were just the same.

You seem to misunderstand the point I am making. The incremental approach of the original DS9-R, in which stories slowly unfolded over the course of many novels, worked well at the time. That same approach no longer seems to work well, and I doubt it will work well in the future. As it happens, Worlds and Warpath were published while the original relaunch still had its momentum. But the leisurely pace of Worlds would certainly be less satisfying now.

As for Warpath, I would argue that it felt more like a complete, satisfying narrative of its own than any of the DS9 novels that have been published since, by a fairly wide margin. It does set up future stories, as of course it should.

However, my point is not that the DS9-R should return to the approach of its early days, but rather that a new approach is probably needed.

 

[DonIago]

Given that Warpath left me very much wanting to know what happens next and felt somewhat transitional to me, I think I'd have to disagree that it felt like it stood on its own.

 

[Therin of Andor]

In its heyday, 4 DS9 novels were coming out per year.

And word counts have been increasing steadily.

 

[Christopher]

You seem to misunderstand the point I am making. The incremental approach of the original DS9-R, in which stories slowly unfolded over the course of many novels, worked well at the time. That same approach no longer seems to work well, and I doubt it will work well in the future.

I understand the point you are trying to make. What I'm trying to get through to you is that it's based on an incorrect assumption about the facts. You're claiming that it's stopped working because the pacing has changed. But that is not true. The hard fact of the matter is that the pacing in the past two years is no slower than it was when WoDS9 and Warpath came out. If anything, it is slightly faster.

Making points is all well and good, but arguments need to be based on the facts. If your argument is based on a misunderstanding of the facts, then just restating it over and over again won't make it any less flawed.

As it happens, Worlds and Warpath were published while the original relaunch still had its momentum. But the leisurely pace of Worlds would certainly be less satisfying now.

But what is the difference? You said the loss of "momentum" was due to the slower pace, but that is a false claim. If you look at the hard facts, the pace is the same or better now as it was when those books came out.

If you ask me, you're thinking about the way things were several years ago, when, yes, the pace of the DS9 novels did slow down due to the delays in getting Fearful Symmetry published (and its eventual split into two books). But you seem to have failed to notice that that slowdown is already over. That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. There would've been merit in your position two years ago, but now, it's out of date.

However, my point is not that the DS9-R should return to the approach of its early days, but rather that a new approach is probably needed.

Well, I think your premise that things are fundamentally different now doesn't fit the facts. The output of DS9 novels is no slower now than it's been for most of the past decade, and there's no valid reason to assume there will be any further editorial changes. As yet, you have absolutely no information about what the current editor has planned for DS9. Maybe there will be a new approach under a new editor, just as Margaret tried to institute a new approach when she took over by jumping the series forward five years. I'd be surprised if there weren't a new approach of some sort.

But what you need to realize is that your information is behind the times. And not just in the sense I mentioned before. There's a long lag time between when an editor commissions a book and when it gets published. Jaime Costas left Pocket six months ago -- eight months if you count her maternity leave -- and yet the books that were commissioned on her watch have not even been published yet. We're still getting the last of the books that Margaret Clark commissioned, even though she's been gone for a year and a half.

So it is way, way too early to make any assumptions about the current state of DS9 fiction, because what's currently hitting the shelves represents the editorial situation of the past. There's a lag time you're not taking into account. For all you or I know, there's already a solid plan in place to revitalize DS9 fiction. We just won't learn what it is until the announcements for the relevant books come out, which would probably be sometime around Shore Leave in July if past years are any indication.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

For all you or I know, there's already a solid plan in place to revitalize DS9 fiction.

God, I hope that is the case.

As a side note, why has the new editor's identity been so hush-hush? Especially if they've been in place for a few months now?

 

[Christopher]

Just individual preference, I guess. I figure some editors prefer to stay in the background and let the authors have the attention. Though I'm only speculating.

 

[flemm]

You're claiming that it's stopped working because the pacing has changed.

Well, no, not precisely. I'm making two related points about the pacing within the novels themselves, i.e. the scope of the story each novel tells, and the pace at which the novels come out.

The Worlds and Warpath books are not good counter-examples to the point I am making because, while the pace at which these novels came out is closer to the current pace than the first few years of the relaunch (obviously), the pace of the stories in the actual novels was too slow for the storylines built up there to ever come to fruition. This is not something that was clear at the time, but it seems clear now.

That means that I am not holding up Worlds and Warpath as the ideal model, as you seem to be assuming. On the contrary, while I like Warpath a lot, and the Worlds books as well for that matter, these four novels are prime examples of what future DS9 novels can probably not afford to do, such as spend three novels on leisurely world building and set-up material for future stories.

If you look at the hard facts, the pace is the same or better now as it was when those books came out.

The pace at which the novels are coming out is much slower than the first few years of the relaunch (its best, most effective years), but about the same as with Worlds and Warpath (the beginning of the end of the original relaunch).

The pace of the stories within the novels, on the other hand, is about the same as it always has been, i.e. fairly incremental. My sense of the situation is that this is probably not good, and that the pace of the stories within the novels should probably adjust to the current pace at which the novels are being published, i.e. less incremental.

I'd be surprised if there weren't a new approach of some sort. ...

We just won't learn what it is until the announcements for the relevant books come out, which would probably be sometime around Shore Leave in July if past years are any indication.

I hope there will be a new approach. The point I am making, as a reader, is precisely that I hope there is a new approach, one that takes into account the current publishing schedule and therefore focuses on making each novel a complete and satisfying DS9 story of its own, involving a broad cast of characters from the show and the original relaunch.

Now, obviously, as I reader, I can only make this point in relative ignorance of what plans actually are. But that is irrelevant. I'm talking about what I hope they are, or what I personally think they should be. The fact that, as readers, we don't know what is going to be done, does not mean we shouldn't talk or think about what should be done in our opinion.

 

[Christopher]

I'm making two related points about the pacing within the novels themselves, i.e. the scope of the story each novel tells, and the pace at which the novels come out.

The Worlds and Warpath books are not good counter-examples to the point I am making because, while the pace at which these novels came out is closer to the current pace than the first few years of the relaunch (obviously), the pace of the stories in the actual novels was too slow for the storylines built up there to ever come to fruition. This is not something that was clear at the time, but it seems clear now.

That means that I am not holding up Worlds and Warpath as the ideal model, as you seem to be assuming. On the contrary, while I like Warpath a lot, and the Worlds books as well for that matter, these four novels are prime examples of what future DS9 novels can probably not afford to do, such as spend three novels on leisurely world building and set-up material for future stories.

All right. Thank you for clarifying.

The pace at which the novels are coming out is much slower than the first few years of the relaunch (its best, most effective years), but about the same as with Worlds and Warpath (the beginning of the end of the original relaunch).

It was only like that for the first three years out of the ten that the post-finale DS9 series has existed. Therefore, I don't think it can be regarded as the normal state of affairs for the series or something that has only recently changed. Those first three years were an exception to the norm for two reasons: one, because the series was just starting out and got a strong initial push (i.e. it probably wasn't expected to keep up such a pace indefinitely); and two, because the frequency of ST novels in general dropped in 2005. So I don't think it makes sense to hold up those atypical first three years as a defining standard for the series.

 

[flemm]

So I don't think it makes sense to hold up those atypical first three years as a defining standard for the series.

Fair enough, they were certainly atypical. That original approach was very successful, though, and much admired by readers (including myself), so I think there is perhaps a risk that future DS9 novels would try to recapture what those novels did, such as build up a storyline slowly over the course of four novels or more.

This is the crux of the point I am trying (apparently rather clumsily) to make: that was good then, but I don't think it would work as well now. So, I hope a new approach is taken.

 

[Christopher]

Well, as I said, I think the two DS9-oriented installments in Typhon Pact were both more episodic than serial. Certainly they were telling independent stories from one another, so they hardly constitute trying to build up a serial storyline. So again, it seems to me that what you're asking for has already arrived.

 

[flemm]

Well, as I said, I think the two DS9-oriented installments in Typhon Pact were both more episodic than serial. Certainly they were telling independent stories from one another, so they hardly constitute trying to build up a serial storyline. So again, it seems to me that what you're asking for has already arrived.

You are right, of course, that ZSG and the DS9 portion of RBoE were independent from one another. Other than that point, this is a subjective issue, so I happily conceed that there are doubtless readers who found ZSG and the Sisko story in RBoE to be completely satisfying as standalone narratives.

I didn't, though for different reasons in each case. ZSG reminded me a lot of Worlds and Warpath. Especially Warpath, which is not surprising given that both stories are penned by David Mack, but there are also some similarities between the Typhon Pact books and the Worlds of DS9 books. Calling the series "Worlds of the Typhon Pact" would not have been much of a stretch, especially for the first three books.

In essence a lot of ZSG was devoted to exploring the Breen culture, while also telling a story about Bashir, like Warpath told a story that primarily focused on Vaugh. I think Warpath is a more powerful character study of Vaugh than ZSG of Bashir, partly because ZSG has to spend a lot of time developing the Breen, but the very tight focus on a single mission and a single character is similar.

Also where ZSG is concerned, the actual impact on Bashir is fairly slight, dare I say incremental. I believe we discussed this recently in another thread and were more or less in agreement: Bashir has killed before in the line of duty, so we might say that Sarina goaded him into being somewhat more ruthless than he might otherwise have been, thereby setting the stage for further manipulation of Bashir in the future. Thus, the portion of ZSG that actually advances the DS9 storyline strikes me as fairly limited: Bashir has become vulnerable to future manipulation by Sarina, an agent of Section 31. That about sums it up. An interesting development to be sure, but if the next three DS9 novels over the next, say, three or four years contain developments of comparable magnitude, I think that will be far too slow a pace to be satisfying.

The Sisko story in RBoE also strikes me as incomplete, for a variety of reasons, but since the DS9 story is only a portion of the novel in any event, it is a less useful example for the purposes of this discussion.

 

[BillJ]

In its heyday, 4 DS9 novels were coming out per year.

And word counts have been increasing steadily.

I'd rather have an 80,000-90,000 word novel every year than a 125,000 word novel every other year.