I remember the Bird saying similar things and even having a Phase II script with the "All" concept in it.
I also think the universe is pretty awe inspiring, and is mindlessly creative. I just don't think I need robes and candles to glorify it.
What story elements would you remove or just forget exist from canon?
- Thread starter Citiprime
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I also think the universe is pretty awe inspiring, and is mindlessly creative. I just don't think I need robes and candles to glorify it.
I liked my choir robe. It meant I could wear whatever I wanted to church, because no one could see my clothes.
I have an easier time believing Klingon have built a religion/ritualism around Kahless and warrior culture than I do in believing the Klingons would value nobility.
In DS9, we learn that being a Klingon commoner can severely limit the ability of a Klingon to pursue a career in the Klingon military. Martok was relegated to being a service worker on a starship when his application was rejected by Kor for lacking noble blood. It seems incongruous to me that in a society where a captain can be replaced by being killed by his subordinate, and the greatest way to die is to die in battle, would also give a damn about whether their warriors had royal blood.
In DS9, we learn that being a Klingon commoner can severely limit the ability of a Klingon to pursue a career in the Klingon military. Martok was relegated to being a service worker on a starship when his application was rejected by Kor for lacking noble blood. It seems incongruous to me that in a society where a captain can be replaced by being killed by his subordinate, and the greatest way to die is to die in battle, would also give a damn about whether their warriors had royal blood.
Like most cultures they have mantras and ideals they aspire to. Often they fail miserably at it. Modern cultures very much included.
So surely they all want to be honorable, but history has shown Klingons to be anything but.
That's pretty standard in many religious traditions that there is variations in worship depending. So I would expect there to be variations in Vulcans too.
The amusing thing is in Trek, this is exactly what happens. Anyone practicing religion winds up in robes with candles nearby. Hence my description.
Speaking of which:
SNW: "Our AI is smart enough not to spray fire retardant on everyone who lit a fire".
Discovery: "Ours too, just 101,000 years smarter".
Trek's aliens typically are a "planet of hats." Almost every alien species the crew encounters is shown to have exalted an aspect of human culture to such a degree that they've surrounded it with ritualism and religion to the point of being absurd.
The idea that religion doesn't make sense in a logical Vulcan society sidesteps the fact that if you think about it too hard the logic of Vulcan philosophy starts to fall apart. Is it logical to deny your own nature and emotions? Control, yes. Try to suppress them and act like they don't or shouldn't exist? No.
The idea that religion doesn't make sense in a logical Vulcan society sidesteps the fact that if you think about it too hard the logic of Vulcan philosophy starts to fall apart. Is it logical to deny your own nature and emotions? Control, yes. Try to suppress them and act like they don't or shouldn't exist? No.
There's an argument to be made that it's not quite true for Vulcans either.
When Picard has the mind meld that channels Sarek's emotions, he voices all of Sarek's regrets. All of the times he wanted to say "I love you" to Amanda and Spock. All of the times he wanted to show it. Can anyone honestly look at the totality of Spock's and Sarek's relationship over the course of the franchise and say that was a "healthy" dynamic for a father and son?
And how does it end? Two people regretting deeds left undone and words left unsaid between them. But to have done those things is not the Vulcan way.
And given what we see in Star Trek (2009), it seems that even Spock realized towards the end of his life that it didn't make sense.
Maybe. We are given such limited insight it's hard to say Vulcans have to either way.
For Klingons conceptualized as a galactic cold war power, sort-of analogous to the Soviet Union, it would make sense that they would largely deny religion, at least amongst the government and military leadership figures that we saw in the 23rd century. I mean, the 23rd century as we saw it in TOS and the TOS movies. So TOS Klingons could admire Kahless as a purely secular military hero, without believing that he would have a supernatural return someday. Maybe it would have been different for ordinary subjects of the Empire who may have held on to traditional beliefs despite being discouraged from doing so by those in power.
Kor
Kor
There's no reason why there can't be Klingons who are devout believers, casual believers, skeptics, doubters, and militant materialists. After all, we have all that and more.
We certainly have all that, but consider the Klingons as a totalitarian regime, as they kind of stood in for the 'other side' of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War era. TOS Klingons were a surveillance state with everybody under constant observation, even commanders of ships. In that kind of setting, any thinking that wasn't in conformity with the party line would have been marginalized to some degree or other, and believers may have had to keep certain traditions confined to private settings.
Kor
Kor
Candles and incense (and robes) are fun and can be useful tools. They set mood and help focus. But they definitely aren't a neccessity.
For example, the GR quote @Tallguy posted reminded me of some forms of Buddhism, Native American religions and alternative (not affiliated with any organized church) spiritual philosophies.
IIRC, only Kohlinoor seeks to eradicate emotion. I believe Spock often said Surak taught about control, not suppression. At least, that's my impression.
Also, we've seen that different Vulcans can come to different logical conclusions. People IRL do it all the time too.
That makes a lot of sense, especially based on what we now know about the variety of "hidden" personal and family practices that took place behind the Iron Curtain.
