What ships SHOULD they have used in the Dominion War?

[KamenRiderBlade]

Societies tend to forget parts of history and repeat it to varying degrees. They, like each of us, can't keep everything they've experienced and learned in mind at the same time. If you isolate people in smaller remote colonies, they're a lot more vulnerable to powerful local magnates.

That's why education is VERY IMPORTANT, especially HISTORY.

Need? Nay, want. Coruscant is awesome. As is Trantor. Though, ideally, I'd want something that combines both those and large natural areas in something more spectacular. I don't necessarily see those in the Federation though, not yet. But I mean, where did the Iconians go? The Galaxy is a very big place. Heck, it can hide whole Dysonspheres not far from Federation space for a hundred years.

I have no desires for ultra dense Planet Wide Cities, hell I hate living in the cities, I like freedom and open spaces.
If you wanted large natural areas, Macross Frontier's Island Colony is awesome.

Spoiler: Macross Frontier Island 1

It was HUGE.

Yeah, but I'm not leaving my home. Even after many do, population growth is a result of success. Of people liking where they're at. Eventually the numbers will climb and we can adjust to maintain Paradise or see new problems arise, like social stratification...and maybe new versions of separate-but-equal reintroduce themselves.

I'm not a fan of "Social Stratification", we see enough of that in reality.
I'd rather try to avoid "Seperate but Equal" in a Star Trek future.

Also, I mean realistically I wonder how habitable even worlds in the habitable zones might be in space. Would local conditions and lifeforms be poisonous or undigestible to us, and incompatible with what we would introduce alongside it? A bit like Eden in TOS but even there the life looked too much like that on Earth. But I don't think we fund a bunch of Earths out there in between a bunch of Marses and Venuses that we can solve population problems with. I mean it would be a lot less expensive to build the most luxurious, opulent, and expansive space stations you can imagine than colonize planets lightyears away. Look at Spacedock or Yorktown. I think there are a lot of diverse and dazzling large population centers in space.

A combination of searching for M-Class Planet & Space Habitats.
SpaceDock / YorkTown are more like Military Fortress Cities in space.
Space Colonies are completely different.

I think the learning and hard work change. We don't hunt for food or dig wells for water anymore yet we appreciate a good meal after a long day. But I mean, AI's are coming, and we can either evolve or fail to. Different is not worse.

Some people still hunt for food in rural areas, wild boar hunting is still a thing. Given the Wild Boars are a environmental pest and there are no bag limits on them due to their over population and destroying the eco system for other animals.

We can adapt, control, and make sure we don't suffer from similar mistakes as in the past.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Carriers still just feel largely useless in Star Trek.

I don't think that small craft/fighters are necessarily useless, but they don't need carriers... they just have their own warp drive.

Other than the Centaur engaging Sisko’s stolen Jem’Hadar bug, we never saw any kitbashes in combat or part of any fleet other than the retreating one at the start of ‘A Time to Stand.’

Again referencing the TNG tech manual, Sternbach used the term "cargo-carrier" as distinct from "tanker," and we have one case where a "survey vessel" ("surveyor' in Sternbach's word choice) is also apparently carrying cargo. So apparently there are three different types of ships that all do similar but not completely interchangeable jobs, all of which may have been shown onscreen but probably got called "cargo ship" or "freighter" in most dialogue.

On top of that, carriers are the biggest ships in the present-day navy, bigger than battleships, yet the classes thought to be "carriers" in the TNG-era are smaller than the Galaxy class, which is called an Explorer, which is a peacetime name in place of battleship.

All this is to say that "carriers" in TNG and DS9 may not be fighter/warship carriers, but instead be carrying supplies, cargo, replacement crew, fuel, etc. Again I find that am thinking of the Ptolemy as an example of a ship that would fit this description, and by extension, it would seem the Miranda and the Centaur and/or Curry types have a similar configuration.

 

[evilchumlee]

All this is to say that "carriers" in TNG and DS9 may not be fighter/warship carriers, but instead be carrying supplies, cargo, replacement crew, fuel, etc. Again I find that am thinking of the Ptolemy as an example of a ship that would fit this description, and by extension, it would seem the Miranda and the Centaur and/or Curry types have a similar configuration.

That's fair, although it feels like a misnomer to call them "carriers". The word "carrier" in this context is aircraft carrier... not... "vessel that carries something".

Bear in mind Starfleet does tend to be big on generalists, both ships and crew. The line tends to be blurred, with seemingly few ships with just ONE purpose. A cargo ship may also be fully equipped for survey missions and light combat patrol.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

A cargo ship may also be fully equipped for survey missions and light combat patrol.

I think that is probably both true and not true.

I suspect that they could (like the Defiant did once or twice) act as a sensor platform to contribute information to a astrological survey or even a planetary survey to a limited extent, however I wouldn't except them to be able to do the detailed analysis of their findings that a larger, generalist "cruiser" or specialist survey ship could do.

Similarly, ENT suggests that cargo ships had defensive weapons for ships up to maybe the runabout or mid-size Maquis vessels and I suspect that this continued, however I doubt that the Xhosa's inability to defend themselves against a KBoP was principally because of their age and most civilian cargo ships* would have been in similar danger regardless of vintage.

* Starfleet operated cargo ships might be a bit more capable, but not tough enough to slug it out with anything bigger than a BoP.

 

[publiusr]

Coruscant is awesome. As is Trantor. Though, ideally, I'd want something that combines both those and large natural areas in something more spectacular. Look at Spacedock or Yorktown. I think there are a lot of diverse and dazzling large population centers in space.

There is a concept called “Globus Cassus” that hasn’t been seen…outside of the “Orion’s Arm” universe at least.

Matt Vissar, a mathematician, imagined a concept called a cubic wormhole that could be light years across.

That is what I like to think Tannhauser gate was…something named after its discoverer.

That or perhaps the cosmological defect called a “texture.”

Some thought the Compton Cold Spot was one.

 

[evilchumlee]

I suspect that they could (like the Defiant did once or twice) act as a sensor platform to contribute information to a astrological survey or even a planetary survey to a limited extent, however I wouldn't except them to be able to do the detailed analysis of their findings that a larger, generalist "cruiser" or specialist survey ship could do.

* Starfleet operated cargo ships might be a bit more capable, but not tough enough to slug it out with anything bigger than a BoP.

For these two points... yes, generally, sort of. Depends on the ship.

A Defiant is a more specialized ship. It's built for combat. It can serve some other purposes in a pinch, but it was designed for combat.

Most Starfleet ships don't appear to be designed that way. They may have something of a targeted mission profile, but by and large most Starfleet vessels seem designed to tackle multiple roles. Hell, take the Galaxy-Class as an example... it was designed as a long-range explorer, and it's ALSO one of the most powerful combat vessels Starfleet has in the era.

Something a bit less grandiose like a Miranda may be better suited for some things, but be able to do many things. Yeah sure, it may not have the specialized science/sensor suites of a dedicated science vessel, but it can do a chunk of science mission profiles. It may not have the weaponry of a Sovereign, but it can still hold its own against vessels of its tier... sure a single Miranda is going to take on a Dominion fleet, but it's more than capable of going toe to toe with a bug ship.

 

[Deks]

Since the UFP is a highly advanced spacefaring collection of societies... they would have used a wide range of ships.
Anything ranging from 23rd to the late 24th century designs.
All older designs would undergo upgrades/refits to update them with most recent technologies so the ships can be kept in service (much like the Lakota did - it received upgrades to ALL its systems - so I'd imagine all other ships in the fleet that were in active service from that time period would have undergone the same treatment - in fact, SF would have likely kept upgrading those ship systems from the very start - we saw that the Miranda's on TNG had LCARS UI's, so that implies SF had in fact been upgrading all of their older designs - its just that with the looming threat of the Dominion War, its likely they would have made bigger emphasis on defensive/offensive and Warp drive systems - much like on the Lakota - which would mainly mean installation of most up to date shield generators, rehaul of the power systems to deliver more powerful phaser blasts - same method the Defiant implemented - upgrades to the warp core, etc.)

Most Starfleet ships don't appear to be designed that way. They may have something of a targeted mission profile, but by and large most Starfleet vessels seem designed to tackle multiple roles. Hell, take the Galaxy-Class as an example... it was designed as a long-range explorer, and it's ALSO one of the most powerful combat vessels Starfleet has in the era.

SF indeed makes ships for specific mission profiles, or they ADJUST the vessel for a given mission profile.
When VOY was launched, it was originally intended to go on a 2 week mission to retrieve Tuvok and the Maqui raider vessel which was lost in the Badlands.
This also explains why the ship launched with mere 38 photon torpedoes - even though in reality, the internal volume of VOY is very big - much larger than the Constitution class, and as such would probably be able to store 120-150 torpedoes in total.

However, even if ships were originally designed for a given purpose, say scientific missions, refits and upgrades can easily make them more combat oriented, etc. and even upgrade their sensors that during peace time those upgrades would have aided them.

Meaning that with the looming threat of the Dominion War in DS9 S4, I'd say that SF would have indeed modified all of their older designs (at least those in active service) to be much more combat capable and faster than before.

If the Lakota was brought up to be equal to the Defiant without having Ablative Hull armour at its disposal, those would be some serious upgrades.

 

[evilchumlee]

SF indeed makes ships for specific mission profiles, or they ADJUST the vessel for a given mission profile.
When VOY was launched, it was originally intended to go on a 2 week mission to retrieve Tuvok and the Maqui raider vessel which was lost in the Badlands.
This also explains why the ship launched with mere 38 photon torpedoes - even though in reality, the internal volume of VOY is very big - much larger than the Constitution class, and as such would probably be able to store 120-150 torpedoes in total.

Voyager is a great example.

Yes, the ship may have been designed for what is essentially short range, recon and combat missions.

As we saw, the Intrepid-Class is more than capable of handling essentially any mission. It may be more suited to certain mission profiles, but it can function in essentially any role.

Meaning that with the looming threat of the Dominion War in DS9 S4, I'd say that SF would have indeed modified all of their older designs (at least those in active service) to be much more combat capable and faster than before.

If the Lakota was brought up to be equal to the Defiant without having Ablative Hull armour at its disposal, those would be some serious upgrades.

That sounds accurate, i'm sure that there were quite a bit of rapid upgrades going on. We see some evidence with the Galaxy-Class, and we know... a bit from background sources... that the Sovereign-Class got some upgrades between FC and Insurrection.

Some ships may be more adaptable and upgradeable than others. A hill I will die on is that the Excelsiors were among the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced, evidenced by the fact that despite being a century old design, they tend to be the ship of choice of the mid-24th century Starfleet admiralty.

They could choose any ship for their flag... they overwhelmingly appear to choose Excelsiors.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Some ships may be more adaptable and upgradeable than others. A hill I will die on is that the Excelsiors were among the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced, evidenced by the fact that despite being a century old design, they tend to be the ship of choice of the mid-24th century Starfleet admiralty.

Don't forget that they upgraded the base class into a updated ground up design known as the Excelsior Mk.II class type.

So it's so good, they made a updated sequel with modern furniture & equipment, but similar profile.

 

[evilchumlee]

Don't forget that they upgraded the base class into a updated ground up design known as the Excelsior Mk.II class type.

Yes, but the Excelsior II is really more of a new ship, inspired by the Excelsior. We have nothing to suggest they are literally upgraded Exclesiors.

That seems to be a common design thread of 25th century Starfleet, a sort of nostalgia for the old days of space exploration. And honestly, it's understandable lore-wise. The latter part of the 24th century was marred with conflict, emerging into what seems to be a much more peaceful 25th century. I don't blame Starfleet for celebrating the relative peace by harkening back to when Starfleet officers were, without a doubt, explorers.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Yes, but the Excelsior II is really more of a new ship, inspired by the Excelsior. We have nothing to suggest they are literally upgraded Exclesiors.

Obviously, but to maintain so many design aspects of the old Excelsiors body line, that's impressive.

That seems to be a common design thread of 25th century Starfleet, a sort of nostalgia for the old days of space exploration. And honestly, it's understandable lore-wise. The latter part of the 24th century was marred with conflict, emerging into what seems to be a much more peaceful 25th century. I don't blame Starfleet for celebrating the relative peace by harkening back to when Starfleet officers were, without a doubt, explorers.

Remember, Si vis pacem, para bellum, meaning "If you want peace, [you should] prepare for war"

 

[Macintosh]

Some ships may be more adaptable and upgradeable than others. A hill I will die on is that the Excelsiors were among the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced, evidenced by the fact that despite being a century old design, they tend to be the ship of choice of the mid-24th century Starfleet admiralty.

They could choose any ship for their flag... they overwhelmingly appear to choose Excelsiors.

That may have less to do with the Excelsiors being "great" and more to do with them fitting into a sort of sweet spot in terms of ship size, crew compliment, technological capability and compatibility, and there simply being a lot of Excelsiors available. Even if an admiral wanted one there are relatively few Galaxy-class ships available, and an admiral keeping a Galaxy-class as their personal ride would be a tremendous waste in resources. And also of course Excelsiors do have that old-school cool that probably suits whatever image the mid-24th century Starfleet Admiralty likes to project.

(For the record though I do agree Excelsiors are indeed one of the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced. People bang on about the Constitution being THE classic Starfleet ship, but come on, the Excelsior is still a serving front-line vessel at twice the age at which the Constitution began to be retired. The 25th century may well have a Constitution III-class but give me an Excelsior II-class any day of the week.)

 

[evilchumlee]

(For the record though I do agree Excelsiors are indeed one of the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced. People bang on about the Constitution being THE classic Starfleet ship, but come on, the Excelsior is still a serving front-line vessel at twice the age at which the Constitution began to be retired. The 25th century may well have a Constitution III-class but give me an Excelsior II-class any day of the week.)

I think Excelsiors and Constitution's are both great ships, for different reasons.

I've always had the notion that Constitution's were actually... not actually great ships, in terms of their general performance and longevity. I think they were SO incredibly overengineered and were basically technology testbeds that they were ridiculously prone to failure and held together by the hopes and prayers of premier engineers. I think they are remembered so fondly due their unprecedent actions and missions rather than the actual vessels themselves. They were prestige ships even at the time, but I think it's because they were the ships going on the "5 year missions", exploring outside of Federation space, doing all sorts of awesome things and building a legendary reputation while other ships were doing a bit more mundane things.

Excelsiors, on the other hand, I think are just solid, well built, reliable vessels that can take a beating and keep on going through almost anything. They can handle all manner of upgrades and the ship just... works.

Compare to something like the Defiant, which we know when designed to it's specifications... doesn't even work. Mirror Smiley built one exactly to specifications and couldn't get the thing to work. Sisko had to explain that... "Oh yeah, by the way, the ship is total garbage and O'Brian had make all kinds of modifications to the specs for it to actually work."

The Galaxy-Class' warp core seemed to go critical if got sneezed on.

I really think that Excelsior's and Miranda's are the workhorses of the fleet for a reason, and it's not just "they built alot of them". That's probably true, but... why did they built alot of them? Because... they're really good* ships.

*good, not necessarily meaning "biggest, most powerful and technologically advanced". Just, all around good, solid, well built ships.

 

[Tim Walker]

Work horse ships. And their large numbers may have emboldened Starfleet to build prestige ships like the Galaxy class. Because if the shiny new ship proves to be a disappointment, you still have those work horse ships to fall back on.

 

[evilchumlee]

Work horse ships. And their large numbers may have emboldened Starfleet to build prestige ships like the Galaxy class. Because if the shiny new ship proves to be a disappointment, you still have those work horse ships to fall back on.

Yes, BUT the Excelsior certainly started out as a prestige ship.

To some extent, I think it's more that some ships are just... better than others. "Better" being a subjective term based on whatever criteria that is being measured.

I do truly think that there is a story hidden behind the story in terms of the Excelsior. It was initially designed as a bleeding tech, high tech ship with an experimental transwarp drive... and Scotty killed it with minimal effort.

"The more you overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

He clearly always held a disdain for Excelsior. There can be many reasons WHY... one of my suggested reasons was, it was just a horribly engineered piece of garbage ship, and once the whole issue was resolved and they were back in good graces... I suspect Scotty had input on what to do with Excelsior. As far as we know, the transwarp didn't work out... given that future ships don't appear to have transwarp drive...

So they gut the ship out and rebuild it, this time almost going to opposite way... they just made a fairly simple ship that just did everything well. It's not necessarily "the best" at anything, but it's just all around "good".

 

[Deks]

Voyager is a great example.

Yes, the ship may have been designed for what is essentially short range, recon and combat missions.

As we saw, the Intrepid-Class is more than capable of handling essentially any mission. It may be more suited to certain mission profiles, but it can function in essentially any role.

The Intrepid was never mentioned to have been designed for short range and recon missions though (but Paris did mention it was designed for combat performance, not musical performance - and even though he said that to Kim as more of a joke, it would at least more or less confirm that the ship was very combat capable).

Its warp core could go on for 3 years without refilling... so it can function in deep space missions for extended periods of time.
But I would imagine that if SF wanted to deploy this class on deep space missions, they can just modify its Warp core to function for 5 years, etc.

The vessel was definitely sturdy enough to survive the Badlands (aka it was specifically designed to survive those conditions since a lot of ships were lost there) - but then again, the Defiant was able to function just fine in the Badlands too (although this is more or less expected as the class was probably designed around the same time as the Intrepid - aka, just after Wolf 359 as both ships were likely SF's attempt to create powerful ships in a smaller frame - so the Intrepid ended up being a downsized Galaxy class).

That sounds accurate, i'm sure that there were quite a bit of rapid upgrades going on. We see some evidence with the Galaxy-Class, and we know... a bit from background sources... that the Sovereign-Class got some upgrades between FC and Insurrection.

Some ships may be more adaptable and upgradeable than others. A hill I will die on is that the Excelsiors were among the greatest ships Starfleet ever produced, evidenced by the fact that despite being a century old design, they tend to be the ship of choice of the mid-24th century Starfleet admiralty.

They could choose any ship for their flag... they overwhelmingly appear to choose Excelsiors.

Or, because the Excelsiors were so long lived, the majority of Admiralty was transported on Excelsiors since they took more of a backend role and stayed closer to home, while the newer classes were out there (in fact we don't have data to directly support the idea that Excelsiors is what the Admiralty used - they were mostly FERRIED on those to other locations - at least during TNG).

That said, we have seen that both Excelsiors and Miranda's in TNG had LCARS UI's... which supports the idea that SF was indeed upgrading them anyway over the previous 75 odd years.

It just wasn't until DS9 S4 that SF stepped up the upgrades to beef them up further (more specifically for the war).
Most modern classes were more or less ok in this regard, but if SF wanted to make use of all their ships, then they needed to beef up the older ships further - and that's exactly what they did.

My opinion on why the Excelsiors and MIranda's are so long lived is mainly rooted in the premise that any starship class can be long lived if it undergoes continuous upgrades/refits over time to keep them current and you can keep the ship indefinitely like this in service (wear and tear would be meaningless when SF developed energy/matter replicators which made manufacturing things on the go even a lot easier - and more complex stuff was easier to make in general - so ships could technically be taken into a drydock or starbase, old components/frame beamed out (in pieces), recycled in the matter stream and replaced with brand new ones.

Up to a certain point external changes to the design were not necessary because most ships in SF used either Duranium or Tritanium for their hulls.
So I suspect that it wasn't until sometime in the 25th century that existing classes would have undergone changes to their external appearance once more advanced materials were available or specific Borg tech integration influenced changes to external designs somewhat).

So, ships that were already in service for about 50 to 100 years wouldn't see significant changes to their exterior, but past that point, they probably would start seeing that.
The Excelsior in fact didn't get a more visual upgrade until the early 25th century... prior to that the Obena seemed like an intermediary upgrade of the Excelsior (a precursor to the Excelsior II - more oval primary and secondary hulls are the most noticeable features as are their sizes).
So I'd say the Obena are the original Excelsiors, just upgraded, while the Excelsior II is the full blown upgrade of the original design which retains most of the original design flow, but retains the size and oval shape of the Obena.

 

[Dukhat]

When Starfleet refits a ship, they usually don’t change the class name from the original.

Or at the least, they may add a ‘II’ to the class name.

Of course, they added a ‘II’ to the class name of the Excelsior II, and there’s no indication that they are refits of older Excelsiors.

They also may call a ship of a completely different class a ‘refit’ even when the only thing they do is add some computers from the old ship to the new one.

Conclusion: Starfleet makes arbitrary decisions.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Conclusion: Starfleet makes arbitrary decisions.

So do real world Militaries.

The X-35 that became the F-35 JSF was supposed to become the F-24, but due to laziness in bureaucracy & paper work, they just decided to flip the X to F instead.

 

[Macintosh]

Conclusion: Starfleet makes arbitrary decisions.

Conclusion: Star Trek production teams make even more arbitrary decisions.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

As we saw, the Intrepid-Class is more than capable of handling essentially any mission. It may be more suited to certain mission profiles, but it can function in essentially any role.

That would help explain why Starfleet has several designs that seem to carry over from one generation or family of ships to the next (the Springfield-class looks like the Grissom but with Galaxy-class components, or the Nebula-class looks like the Miranda-class with Galaxy components). There a re plenty of reasons why we could see a Miranda on DS9, but we still should have seen more Nebula's than were shown.