What sets TUC apart from all the others...

[Leto_II]

TUC was all about nostalgia. The film gave us:

1. Enterprise vs. Klingons
2. A TOS-style Klingon, complete with fu manchu moustache. Yes, Chang had ridges, but the homage was pretty obvious.
3. Kirk battling his evil twin.
4. McCoy operating on an alien
5. Scotty freaking out in Engineering
6. Kirk saving the world

etc...

In regards to your second point, I've always heard that it was at the insistence of Plummer since he didn't want a bumpy forehead.

This is also borne out by the storyboards found on the DVD and Blu-Ray, which depict General Chang (pre-Plummer casting) as much more strongly resembling the "traditional" TNG/movie-era Klingon, complete with long hair, more pronounced ridges, etc.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

This is also borne out by the storyboards found on the DVD and Blu-Ray, which depict General Chang (pre-Plummer casting) as much more strongly resembling the "traditional" TNG/movie-era Klingon, complete with long hair, more pronounced ridges, etc.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they didn't changed their minds after Plummer put down his demands. I'm sure at some point, someone had the TOS-Klingon homage and went with it.

 

[Hypaspist]

This is also borne out by the storyboards found on the DVD and Blu-Ray, which depict General Chang (pre-Plummer casting) as much more strongly resembling the "traditional" TNG/movie-era Klingon, complete with long hair, more pronounced ridges, etc.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they didn't changed their minds after Plummer put down his demands. I'm sure at some point, someone had the TOS-Klingon homage and went with it.

I don't care why they did it, I'm glad they did. It made more sense to show variety in an entire race of people that had an empire to themselves.

also the hell with Enterprise. Damn it forever.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Something I just realized about TUC (which I rewatched just yesterday): it's the only one of the six classic movies that does *not* feature, as its central plot point, the results or implications of using advanced (either cutting-edge or beyond its own time) technology for its own sake.

You're forgetting what set the whole plot in motion. Sure, Praxis was mainly backstory, but it did more to drive the plot than the Genesis Device in TWOK, which was little more than a MacGuffin.

Beat me to it. It's worth noting that Praxis was supposed to be a 23rd century version of Chernobyl...if that's not dealing with the implications of technology, I don't know what is...moreso, IMO, than the mysterious god-being of TFF.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Something I just realized about TUC (which I rewatched just yesterday): it's the only one of the six classic movies that does *not* feature, as its central plot point, the results or implications of using advanced (either cutting-edge or beyond its own time) technology for its own sake.

You're forgetting what set the whole plot in motion. Sure, Praxis was mainly backstory, but it did more to drive the plot than the Genesis Device in TWOK, which was little more than a MacGuffin.

Beat me to it. It's worth noting that Praxis was supposed to be a 23rd century version of Chernobyl...if that's not dealing with the implications of technology, I don't know what is...moreso, IMO, than the mysterious god-being of TFF.

Absolutely.

In addition, the story of TUC is certainly more about the fallout of the Praxis explosion than TWOK's is about the fallout of 20th century genetic engineering. First of all, the Praxis explosion happens on screen. Secondly, TWOK is more immediately about revenge for having been marooned on Ceti Alpha V; it's "Space Seed" that's more about the fallout of 20th century genetic engineering.

Calling the God-being of TFF technology by Clarke's law is just a way of shoehorning it into the thesis that TUC is special in a certain regard, which isn't really standing up to scrutiny on multiple accounts now.

 

[Mr. Hengist]

The overuse of Shakespeare almost makes me want to hate this movie and I love Shakespeare. It's just not cleverly employed, here and it's grating. I wish there had been a Larger Than Life technology involved in this movie, the way GENESIS, V'Ger & the Whale Probe were, but seeing Klingons hovering in mid-air like skeeters was an experience all its own ...

Certainly one would think the Klingon commoander (forgot his name) would be quoting a Klingon poet and NOT a centuries-old Earth poet. It also doesn't make much sense that a Klingon who loved Earth culture enough to memorize Shakespeare would be so bent on destroying the civilization that produced it. He should have been an Earth-o-phile, not an Earth-hater.

 

[Hypaspist]

Certainly one would think the Klingon commoander (forgot his name) would be quoting a Klingon poet and NOT a centuries-old Earth poet. It also doesn't make much sense that a Klingon who loved Earth culture enough to memorize Shakespeare would be so bent on destroying the civilization that produced it. He should have been an Earth-o-phile, not an Earth-hater.

I don't know, he could have seriously liked Shakespeare and felt in his own weird way that Earth was a worthy conquest. The thing about Klingons is that they actually enjoy having worthy foes, so it makes sense that he would be interested in their technology, their culture, and their history. Plus this isn't that uncommon when you think about it: the Japanese loved Babe Ruth even during WW2, and they'd even call out his name as a kind of weird taunt.

I think it worked from a movie standpoint as well. Chang was a warrior poet archetype, so he probably had all sorts of lines memorized. He was shown to have a knowledge of Shakespeare so they went back to that in a later scene. To quote a Klingon poet would need more screen time for explanation of its significance to their culture.

 

[Hober Mallow]

The TNG-era Klingons don't look much like the movie Klingons to me. The movie Klingons have a less severe appearance, less pronounced brow ridge, human nose instead of a hooked nose, and a lot more variation. When I showed my girlfriend TUC and we first see the Klingons beam over to the Enterprise, she, used to TNG, asked me the same question Bashir asked Worf in "Trials and Tribble-ations:" "Those are Klingons?!"

 

[Lance]

The TNG-era Klingons don't look much like the movie Klingons to me. The movie Klingons have a less severe appearance, less pronounced brow ridge, human nose instead of a hooked nose, and a lot more variation. When I showed my girlfriend TUC and we first see the Klingons beam over to the Enterprise, she, used to TNG, asked me the same question Bashir asked Worf in "Trials and Tribble-ations:" "Those are Klingons?!?"

I've always felt the same way. I think it's because, being made on a TV show budget, TNG further revised the make-up to make it simpler and faster to apply. You could call it the 'McDonalds Principal': streamlining the process down to its absolute base level, so that it's faster and cheaper to produce. In the movies they had much more time to make each individual Klingon unique, but on TV they tended to just use a set number of prefabricated appliance pieces, and mixed them around a bit to suit the faces of the actors (Gowron was probably the least 'generic' looking Klingon of the TNG era).

This is another of those things that I think got lost with the TNG movies, actually. They brought TV series techniques to the big screen, which is why so many of the races became more generic. The Romulans suffered terribly in Nemesis IMO because Westmore and his team were still using the "make cheap mass-produced generic appliances" method of creating the make-up, instead of maybe being more bold and creating more individual designs... TUC was great because virtually every Klingon looks unique.

 

[eyeresist]

The overuse of Shakespeare almost makes me want to hate this movie and I love Shakespeare. It's just not cleverly employed, here and it's grating.

The Shakespeare quotes are just Nick Meyer yelling "I got cultcha!" The Nixon reference is what really bugs me.

And would "Revenge is a dish best served cold" really be a Klingon saying? Hot-blooded Klingons would more likely prefer to immediately grab their enemy and rip their face off.

Does anyone else feel that TUC goes downhill after the first act?

 

[Hypaspist]

And would "Revenge is a dish best served cold" really be a Klingon saying? Hot-blooded Klingons would more likely prefer to immediately grab their enemy and rip their face off.

Does anyone else feel that TUC goes downhill after the first act?

I think they can be cold and calculating. Actually I'll just carry this into its own thread elsewhere...

I would agree that the movie does go downhill. It isn't exactly a genius plot, but it presents it all in a way that makes for an enjoyable movie. I think the filmmakers were obviously inspired by Hunt for the Red October. I half expected Chang to say "It is wise to study the ways of one's adversary" after he quoted Shakespeare.
None of this means that the movie isn't a good send-off. At the end of the day, I think every Star Trek story is as good as its characters. It's why I don't hate 5 and why, even though I liked Into Darkness, it really irritates me that they made Kirk into kind of a dirtbag officer.

 

[eyeresist]

And would "Revenge is a dish best served cold" really be a Klingon saying? Hot-blooded Klingons would more likely prefer to immediately grab their enemy and rip their face off.

I think they can be cold and calculating. Actually I'll just carry this into its own thread elsewhere...

I assume that's not the Klingons vs Romulans thread? It is a bit of a question how sneaky the Klingons can be, or can admit to being. They use cloaking ships, spies and other deceptive strategy, but I can't help thinking these would be condemned as dishonourable practices, at least in public. It's probably something else that they don't like to discuss with outsiders.

(I'm guessing this matter has been addressed in the literature?)

 

[Commishsleer]

The overuse of Shakespeare almost makes me want to hate this movie and I love Shakespeare. It's just not cleverly employed, here and it's grating.

The Shakespeare quotes are just Nick Meyer yelling "I got cultcha!" The Nixon reference is what really bugs me.

And would "Revenge is a dish best served cold" really be a Klingon saying? Hot-blooded Klingons would more likely prefer to immediately grab their enemy and rip their face off.

Does anyone else feel that TUC goes downhill after the first act?

I just accept the Shakespeare references , the Nixon quote and the Sherlock Holmes quote as humour that doesn't affect the story so I'm inclined to enjoy them and let it go.

My problems with TUC have more to do with Kirk's crew sudden 'racism' and lack of IQ.

 

[OpenMaw]

One thing is for certain, if they ever make another TV show, they need to avoid making the Klingons spouting HONOR and LOYALTY every five seconds. Diversify. Make em real, and not cartoon characters.


I think another element that makes TUC unique is that, aside from the overuse of shakespeare, it also is the most politically overt of the TOS movies. Up to that point that connection to the USSR and the Klingons was... Well, we all knew what was being implied, but the TV show never made it so specifically connected. Indeed, the metaphors culturally seem muddled between Feudal Japanese influences, and Soviet influences. The Praxis/Chernobyl connection is undeniable and right in your face, though. As a result I do feel it dates the film a little more harshly than some of the other TOS Trek films.

 

[mos6507]

Trek IV dates more because you actually see the world as it actually was in the mid 80s and it doubly-dates by riffing on 60s nostalgia via "save the whales". It gets away with it now only because you can view them warping into the past instead of the present. And so some of their observations about how weird life was, which were played for irony then, now are starting to make as much sense to us now as Spock complaining about the state of electronics in City on the Edge of Forever.

 

[2takesfrakes]

THE VOYAGE HOME still has the problem, though, of having parked the cloaked HMS Bounty in the middle of an oft-used recreational park. Invisible doesn't equate to non-existant and insubstantial. And when Gillian picks up the same couple of guys who seemed to "threaten" her whales - the very same ones she kicked off her premises for it - this movie just falls apart in all kinds of ways. All of the dialogue surrounding Spock's putting his robe back on is rubbish. As is the rest of this ... this film. Unfortunately, based on the commercial success of it and Wrath of Khan, "they" just cut Nick Meyer loose on Undiscovered Country. And not for the better.

 

[The Colonel]

I really like TUC, it was a great a send off for TOS crew and had an interesting plot that utilized the characters well. The set design for the Klingon court room was especially well done. My two main problems with the film are...

1. The overuse of Shakespeare to the point that the script begins to beat you over the head with it, and the quoted lines are many times incogruous to what is actually happening in the film.

2. The Cold War allegory is sometimes overplayed and the movie has the habit of stopping and telling the audience in bold letters "WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE COLD WAR!". Two of the worst examples of this are Chang's line "In space all warriors are cold warriors" and Kirk during his speech at the end says "Some people have called this the end of history." Which refers to a very well known 1989 essay titled "The End of History" by political scientist Francis Fukuyama, that deals with the end of the Cold War. Then's there's other obvious but more general ties to 20th Century politics like Spock saying "Only Nixon can go to China", the Federation President saying "This President is not above the law" which is a direct Nixon quote and Chang charging Kirk and Spock under "Interstellar Law" which he sarcastically says they "claim to cherish" which is a reference for US support of international law during the Bush administration. It all becomes a bit too much and begins to break down the fourth wall.

 

[Hober Mallow]

Don't forget Adlai Stevenson's famous "Don't wait for the translation!"

 

[Maurice]

I was never bothered by "Only Nixon could go to China," because it means "only a hawk can go to the enemy without making his country look weak."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I was never bothered by "Only Nixon could go to China," because it means "only a hawk can go to the enemy without making his country look weak."

My issues with it were mainly because it was in essence another instance of the "original Klingon" running gag. Granted, "Only Pandex could go to the Glorps," would have entailed its own issues. Of all of that sort of thing in TUC, I cringed most at the "ancestor of mine" Doylism.