What Right Did Janeway Have to Force the Ferenghi Home?

[Guy Gardener]

You don't know if Kirk's Logs of these moments entirely reflected the truth.

If in the old prime timeline Kirk might have actually figured out how to make Spock lie as well?

If the admiralty never found out about his shady shit, then he could continue to lead a very unStarfleet life while not being in risk so much of losing the nice ship they let him hoon around in.

Notice how the lying about not breaking the Prime Directive didn't work out so well in Into Darkness?

How early was Court Martial?

Season one, episode 20.

After that one, Kirk should have lost complete faith in the system.

 

[Paradise City]

I do think with Voyager and with Starfleet not looking over their shoulder all the time and they are in a vacuum it is plausible that Janeway would slacken off with the PD or get a bit lacklustre on that subject. It's kind of a chance to return to the maverick Kirk era where there wasn't always a starbase to report to and there was opportunity to skip the rules if it was felt it was right. But there was always some handwringing or a Vulcan onside to make Kirk sweat a little. But there's never much of that with Janeway - except early on. The PD typically just doesn't exist with her and Tuvok is no help.

I don't mind them running into the Ferengi and the general plot of the episode. It's an amusing tie-in. But the Ferengi are played in an OTT slapstick way and Neelix of course is in his element with that. It comes across as a variety act.

It's not implausible Janeway would step in. It's just like intervening with a guy getting a hiding and breaking it up. It's not necessarily a given that you then go on to become Batman and must sort out every injustice. Janeway is like soldier or secret agent or something with orders not to contact anyone but proceeds to intervene with a mugging they see anyway.

 

[hux]

Janeway passionately despised the Ferenghi and is a well known Ferenghiphobist. She presumably has a lot of fascistic paraphernalia in her quarters. I imagine she broke the prime directive on a weekly basis by violently oppressing any species that had big ears or an unfortunate pronunciation of the word humans.

I think we can all agree, she is monster.

She has no jurisdiction in the episode. It's her own hatred.

Did we ever see the other side of the story. What about those who loved and benefitted from this brand of Ferenghi capitalism injected into their society. Did Janeway care about them? What about them! What about them!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Consider if you are American (this is to everyone, don't feel singled out PC) that you are happy enough to be beholden to American law after you've killed someone a little bit important, but what if the Canadians, Mexicans and Russians had skin in this game, and they all wanted to drag you back to their courts first to face their justice until you're jailed or executed, even though you are screaming that American law is your bag baby, and US police people and prison security are being kneecapped and gassed by the gross, as 3 foreign governments are trying to seize you while playing keep-away with each other and the US as well.



Voyager can rip the atmosphere off any planet, or blow up any star without taxing itself much.

Where it goes is of the utmost interest of people becoming inside it's weapons range, and any one with the power to drawn a line in space to differentiate the difference between Us and Them, has no interest in a huge mobile torpedo depository thinking it has the right to issue humanitarian aid without an invitation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway passionately despised the Ferenghi and is a well known Ferenghiphobist. She presumably has a lot of fascistic paraphanalia in her quarters. I imagine she broke the prime directive on a weekly basis by violently oppressing any species that had big ears.

I think we can all agree, she is monster.

Kes' lover had changed his physical attributes dramatically.

Who's idea was it they they do it, in his Ferengi Costume?

Or did one of them punk out?

 

[Paradise City]

There's references throughout Trek to something generally called "interstellar law". These are presumably a set of laws or treaties signed on a multipower power basis that sets standards for galantic conduct.

One might speculate, this might include a galactic (Alpha-Beta Q) agreement to a hands off approach to pre-warp civilisations. If the Ferengi are a signatory power, maybe Janeway does moves within a mandate granted by interstellar law afterall.

It just seems a little incongruent that you've got all these pre-warp civilisations and the big powers don't fall on them all the time. OK, sure, sometimes it happens, in particular in TOS, but not as much as one might think either.

 

[hux]

I can't see the Romulans or Cardassians giving a solitary shit about interfering with pre-warp civilisations. The resources to be found on such planets would mean constant dickish interference from the most dickish aliens in the galaxy.

I can see a scenario where Starfleet leaves a pre-warp planet because of their none interference policy then ten minutes later, the Romulans arrive and start digging the place up.

Starfleet seem to think that they're the only fuckers in space. Picard thinks these philosophical questions are the preserve of the Federation.

PICARD: How about a war? If generations of conflict is killing millions, do we interfere? Ah, well, now we're all a little less secure in our moral certitude. And what if it's not just killings. If an oppressive government is enslaving millions? You see, the Prime Directive has many different functions, not the least of which is to protect us. To prevent us from allowing our emotions to overwhelm our judgement.

No one cares mate. The Cardassians will be along next Tuesday to enslave them anyway.

 

[Paradise City]

Yeah but the Klingons are a part of interstellar agreements. Kruge liked quoting interstellar law and cite these type of rebuttals whilst lawlessly destroying everything around him. Governments like to pretend they are all moral and ethical even when their conduct is deplorable. If the Klingons sign these agreements, I can imagine Ferengi do too and there's your justification to turf them out of there.

If some other AQ/BQ power such as the Cardassians had a little slave colony there, Janeway would still want to turf them out of there too.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I can't see the Romulans or Cardassians giving a solitary shit about interfering with pre-warp civilisations.

The Cardies seemed quite content with occupying Bajor. (Which, as far as we know, is not warp capable. Yes, they are aware of other worlds, but the Bajorans don't actually possess warp drive.)

As long as a particular world has the resources they crave, the and would occupy the hell out of anyone they felt like. It's just what they do.

 

[hux]

Exactly.

So the impact of the prime directive will be utterly negligible unless all the other space powers agree to the same terms.

I'm not aware of any such agreement and the actions of the Cardassians on Bajor would suggest there is no such agreement.

Picard and his crew might have a massive, soul-searching, heart-wrenching debate about the importance of the prime directive then two weeks later some other major power comes along and says meh, fucke em... let's start mining.

 

[Paradise City]

I can't see the Romulans or Cardassians giving a solitary shit about interfering with pre-warp civilisations.

The Cardies seemed quite content with occupying Bajor. (Which, as far as we know, is not warp capable. Yes, they are aware of other worlds, but the Bajorans don't actually possess warp drive.)

As long as a particular world has the resources they crave, the and would occupy the hell out of anyone they felt like. It's just what they do.

The-occupation Bajor was aware what was going on in the galaxy. They were quite an urbane planet.

They aren't a pre-first contact species and we can reasonably speculate that they did have some kind of warp drive.

The society the Ferengi take advantage of are a very primitive pre-first contact lot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

interstellar stellar law means the law used between suns.

Traffic rules practically, and how you deal with piracy.

But once you find a sun.

And the planets swinging around that sun, interstellar law no longer applies barbecue you are no longer between suns, and local laws kick in. Interstellar law probably means between empires too, since what's the point of taking over a tenth of the galaxy if no one will do what you say?

Federation Space.

Klingon Space.

Interstellar Space.

It's probably an evolution of international waters, and international waters agreements.

The laws of no one country can be enforced in international waters, because no one country owns international waters, but that doesn't mean that it's the purge 24/7, unless you're a boat captain and you really want it to be the purge 24/7.

...

Hux, there's no "H" in Ferengi.

...

The Ferengi take advantage of the Federation and the Cardassians. The more advanced the culture they deal with, the greater the profit. What the #### do the Ferengi want from Savages who pay for #### with leaves and beads?

...

In the novel Prime Directive, which is barely about the Directive at all, it's explained that prewarp cultures who fall inside Federation space (which you admit must happen a lot if the Federation is always extending it's boarders outward towards and around occupied worlds, quietly annexing numerous prewarp worlds by "owning" every lick of space around that prewarp world like it's a siege, so the Romulans can't later on, take that young planets resources without trekking through the Federation space cradling it to rape that noobz sick dilithium deposits.) are reserved 50 neighboring worlds to grow into over the next hundred years or three before they feel hard pressed to Join the Federation or invade the Federation or ignore the Federation or sign up with someone else.

Not canon, but generous.

 

[Paradise City]

Interstellar law is stuff arrived at through countless treaties that could govern any issue - from trade controls, to armaments, it may cover environmental issues, outline frontiers and there maybe conventions governing pre-first contact planets.

They are typically signed as part of the diplomatic dance between states and part of that is a game of oneupmanship. If there is such a convention governing interstellar treatment of pre-first contact planets -- and it seems intuitive -- it's probably observed reasonably well and are conventions that are easily to sign up to and win diplomatic points from as most such planets are of no strategic interest. Of course those that are strategically important or have resources are still pounced upon as long as a rival power doesn't catch 'em at it. Just like today where the great, good and the downright ugly countries sign various environmental treaties, give rousing oratory but don't practice what they preach or what they are committed to but are nevertheless criticised for violations that become a matter of public debate and the diplomatic joust.

Still such a hypothetical conventions would still give Janeway enough grounds to turf those Ferengi con men out of there.

 

[hux]

But is there any such agreement? Nothing in the show has ever suggested a quadrant-wide acceptance of the PD. If it isn't the case then the Federation having such a policy is pretty irrelevant.

Hux, there's no "H" in Ferengi

Dammit!

 

[Paradise City]

Interstellar law with all its possible permutations remains a vague concept on-screen. What I'm talking about is not the Prime Directive though. The Prime Directive is far more rigorous than a mere hands off approach to very primitive planets.

 

[Catarina]

She sensed an injustice and had to poke her nose into it because she felt it was wrong and went all for it until they pointed out she couldn't. End of story. Which I liked. :P

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about Maritime Law as a real life paradigm?

But considering %99 of the ####s you'd need to use interstellar law with, are unfamiliar with even the language you might be trying to explain these laws in, Interstellar Law is probably ultimately likened to "the Social Contact" which Greg House spent 8 years trying to repeal.

PS

If they had interstellar law, why did they need the khitomer Accords? Yes I know, they were suing for a peace, rather than the usual which was picking the right time to start a war.

Let's remember the Organian Treaty.

Space Gods stopping them from fighting for a hundred years until they should be mature enough not fight each other by themselves.

PPS

If Interstellar law isn't something that all the AQ races agreed to, and just what what Klingons call space law, rather than planet law, both of which only apply to Klingons in Klingon space, then shooting someone in the back while under a flag of truce, totally sounds like what we had come to expect of Klingons until Worf started really hammering all this day of Honour crap home.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

She sensed an injustice and had to poke her nose into it because she felt it was wrong and went all for it until they pointed out she couldn't. End of story. Which I liked. :P

Actually, what *I* liked is...she CAN. She can try as best she can to do what's right - stop the Ferengi from enslaving an innocent species - and there's no one to stop her. Not in the Delta Quadrant, anyway.

As for "Interstellar Law" - what value does that have, if there is no entity that can exact penalties for breaking it?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Honour code dude.

In the end it was the Ferengi that needed saving from their slaves, who'd always known that these guys where going to be burnt to death and that they'd get all their stuff back.

Actually, if it was a question of who would be be burning these two, and when, if there were dozens or hundreds of villages that these Ferengi were milking, then what we are actually looking at is a weird complicated game of roulette.

A hundred villages kept fattening the pot, hoping that it would be they who got that pot when Arridor and Kol were finally set ablaze.

The Takarians totally knew this was a ruse?

 

[Paradise City]

Interstellar law seems to be the equivalent of international law and states signatory to such treaties would be legally obliged to enforce its provisions. I presume the only repercussions would be a diplomatic protest or perhaps states would be empowered to correct infractions? Does it have much practical value? Probably not. Speaking in terms of the realpolitik of it, it's all part of the diplomatic dance of oneupmanship, name calling and jeering that rival states routinely engage in and have engaged in perhaps during the time before the UN, the latter of which put things on a more formal level. Certainly a concept of interstellar law does exist and seems to at least encompass arms treaties, some codes of galactic behaviour and frontier provisions.