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What other things can we change for The Drooling Masses?

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In fiction, 'because its cool' is a valid reason to do something.
I beg to differ.

I've seen a lot of really CRAPPY examples of fiction where this was the approach taken. I've seen very few examples of fiction I actually enjoyed where things weren't done in a way that was intended to make sense.

Movies like "Airplane" are an obvious exception... so let's omit spoofs and stick with "serious fiction," by the way.

If it doesn't make sense, I don't enjoy it. Thus, as far as I'm concerned, stuff done "just to look cool" inherently results in bad storytelling.

I know not everyone looks at things this way. But a lot of people do. And these people tend to be among the smarter people in society. Which, it's known, correlates to the "best off" among society reasonably well... which in turn relates to "the ones that the studios want to make into fans of their product so they'll keep watching, keep buying, etc, etc."

As far as first-run ticket sales go... you bet, "looking cool" may be enough to make a good three or four week run at the local multiplex. But I think we all know that the majority of money made by any film (especially "franchise" films) is in after-market... DVD sales, merchandising, etc.

Glitzy "looks cool but make no sense" flicks tend not to do as well in that after-market field. And if you already have an after-market (even if it's a bit sickly at the moment)... the last thing you want to do is kill the existing one off.

The sheer volume of Jar-Jar merchandise filling landfills today will attest to that! ;)
 
So if a person on the street wouldn't notice why change it?

Why not change it? Why does the decision to change it have to be justified, especially since, as I noted above, it's completely arbitrary either way and neither option is objectively superior?

Why can't you just have creativity for creativity's sake instead of justifying it like it's a goddamn senior thesis?

Uhmm... canon?

1) You're using the wrong term. "Canon" refers to the original body of work upon which derivative works such as fan fiction or media tie-in novels are based. The term you're looking for is "continuity." Shakespeare has a canon, but only a few of those works share a continuity.

2) Shared continuity is not and has never been a valid reason not to exercise creativity. That's why Gene Roddenberry didn't have a problem with completely redesigning the Klingons for TMP from what they had been in TOS, and why later creators then redesigned their bumpy foreheads from a vertical line of bumps down the center of the forehead to many different ridges across the entire forehead, all without any explanation until ENT came along decades later. That's why the Klingons went from being Federation Members in early TNG to an independent society in later TNG. That's why Vorta went from having telekinetic powers in "The Jem'Hadar" to not even having decent eyesight in DS9 Season Six. That's why the Trill went from their TNG depiction to their DS9 depiction. That's why the Borg were radically changed from early TNG to their state in Star Trek: First Contact. That's why the Enterprise went from being "the United Earth Ship Enterprise" answering to the "United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA)" in early TOS to being the Federation Starship Enterprise working for the Starfleet of the United Federation of Planets in later TOS. That's why first contact between the Klingons and Humans went from happening in the early 23rd Century as per TOS and TNG to happening in 2151 in ENT. That's why Lt. Leslie died in one TOS episode and was alive in later ones. That's why VOY's "Threshold" was removed from Trek continuity by its writer. That's why anti-matter went from being a substance that would destroy the universe if it came into contact with normal matter in "The Alternate Factor" (TOS) to being the thing that powers starships' warp engines. That's why Spock's race went from being the Vulcanians who had been conquered by Humans ("The Conscience of the King") to being the Vulcans who were resented for dominating late 21st and early-to-mid 22nd Century Earth politics and later co-founded the Federation as equal partners (ENT). That's why early TOS couldn't even decide when it was set (everything from 200 years into the future to 800 years into the future) before TNG's "The Neutral Zone" finally set our current chronology in stone.

Retcons have a long history in Trek and always will. The canon has NEVER had a completely cohesive shared continuity; there have always been discontinuities, and Trekkies have always either justified them or disregarded them. Telling a good story is more important than avoiding contradicting minor details that only anal-retentive geeks like us care about.

And I can tell you right now why the new ship design doesn't violate continuity:

One word:

"Refit."

Creativity is more important than canon.

I know not everyone looks at things this way. But a lot of people do. And these people tend to be among the smarter people in society. Which, it's known, correlates to the "best off" among society reasonably well... which in turn relates to "the ones that the studios want to make into fans of their product so they'll keep watching, keep buying, etc, etc."

People like you are the reason Trek is completely disrespected as a work of art. You're so obsessed with minutiae and minor details like whether or not the design of the ship APPEARS to fit into the aesthetic established in previous entries in the canon that you'll start ranting and raving and try to imply that people who disagree with you -- people who value creativity over technicality -- are somehow less intelligent than you are. You're so threatened by change -- and relatively unimportant change at that -- that you'll insult other people over it. Which is particularly ironic, because one of the primary themes of Star Trek is the inevitability and positive nature of change.

Guess what? PLENTY of intelligent people believe in being creative and re-interpreting things for the sake of trying to inject new life and energy into them, or trying to see them through new lenses. Why do you think Brecht took the Threepenny Opera and completely re-adapted it for a 20th Century audience? Why else do you think Larson took La Boheme and re-adapted it into a rock opera in the mid-90s? Why else do you think Moore took the Charlton Comics characters and completely re-adapted them to create Watchmen? Why else do you think Nolan took the Batman mythos and completely re-interpreted it for a post-9/11, post-Iraq, post-Katrina America in The Dark Knight? Why else do you think Lennon took compositions like "Moonlight Sonata" by Beethoven and re-adapted it into the song "Because?" Why else do you think Taymor took the entire Beatles library and adapted them into an epic film musical about the entire 1960s?

As Shatner once said -- and, by the way, William Shatner, Captain Kirk himself, has no problem with the new Enterprise -- "Get a life."
 
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Actually, a radical change was indeed needed - and I'm not just talking about the visuals.

Then why insist on it beign a 'redo of Star Trek' in the first place? If there had to be such a radical redo of Trek... why not, I dunno, do something original with it, instead of trying to cash in on names while presenting something that - to current appearances - has almost nothing else in common with Star Trek?
 
instead of trying to cash in on names while presenting something that - to current appearances - has almost nothing else in common with Star Trek?

In your incorrect opinion.

It's about the Starship Enterprise with characters named Kirk, Spock and McCoy. That is Star Trek.
 
Actually, a radical change was indeed needed - and I'm not just talking about the visuals.

Then why insist on it beign a 'redo of Star Trek' in the first place? If there had to be such a radical redo of Trek... why not, I dunno, do something original with it, instead of trying to cash in on names while presenting something that - to current appearances - has almost nothing else in common with Star Trek?

Because re-interpreting an existing piece can be good for that piece. It can inject new life into it, and new depth, give us new ways of looking at the original. It's a way of saying new things, of keeping a classic work relevant to a modern audience. There's a reason Rent was running alongside La Boheme on Broadway a few years ago.

And with luck, for instance, Abrams' Star Trek will revive the franchise from the deathsleep it's been in since 2005.

The better question is:

Why are so many fans of a franchise that's all about the positive nature of change so THREATENED by change when they actually see it?
 
It's about the Starship Enterprise with characters named Kirk, Spock and McCoy. That is Star Trek.

So you must have hated the 1980s, 1990s, and last several years, then?

Give me a break, so the only thing that makes something 'Star Trek' is the extremely superficial branding of it? There's no more to it than that? So, you're here because you really like the cast names?!

Seriously, the hell?
 
It's about the Starship Enterprise with characters named Kirk, Spock and McCoy. That is Star Trek.

So you must have hated the 1980s, 1990s, and last several years, then?

Give me a break, so the only thing that makes something 'Star Trek' is the extremely superficial branding of it? There's no more to it than that? So, you're here because you really like the cast names?!

Seriously, the hell?

That would be the character names.
 
Why are so many fans of a franchise that's all about the positive nature of change so THREATENED by change when they actually see it?

And this is where you make your mistake. I expected changes for this 'reboot'. I do not like the changes that I've seen, particularly since many indicate very short-term thinking and very much the 'kewl fanboi' approach to story-telling.

Is it impossible to accept that while I accepted that the Enterprise herself may need redone somewhat, that I simply dislike the design that they came up with? Nevermind that we're being told that it's the 'same ship, honest to God'?

Or that the preview has TWO gratuitous bra shots in it, with one showing that James T. Kirk expicitly has a four-inch dick in it? Is this the sort of 'story-telling' change I'm supposed to like, because it's 'new and edgy and different'?

Or that the idea of the Enterprise being spot-welded together by hand (something the US Navy doesn't even do in TODAY's wet navy), is just absurd on the face of it?

Or that the captain of the ship is now explicitly the youngest member of the crew? We're well past my suspension of disbelief here, guys...

We're not even to 'canon' or 'continuity' issues yet, because one of the admitted points of the movie is the literally erase TOS and start over with it for the movie series. That just makes me wonder what the fargin' point was in the first place.

And now, to Godwin!
"Everything must change" - Adolph Hitler, 1933.
 
On a related note, I keep hearing it being said that one continuity violation is having the Enterprise crew meet Romulans face-to-face before the events of Balance of Terror. But how do we know they even find out that Nero and his gang are Romulans? I understood that was the reason the storyline called for Nero's ears to be mutilated, so it would be harder to tell what race he is?
 
On a related note, I keep hearing it being said that one continuity violation is having the Enterprise crew meet Romulans face-to-face before the events of Balance of Terror. But how do we know they even find out that Nero and his gang are Romulans? I understood that was the reason the storyline called for Nero's ears to be mutilated, so it would be harder to tell what race he is?

The script has Kirk and Scotty reporting back that they're aboard Romulan ships, fighting Romulans, rather explicitly. They MAY take that out, but, really, considering the nature of the story itself, it's harder to argue that it's a continuity issue... the point, after all, is to ERASE AND REDO that part of continuity.
 
You said they were the cast names :p

Interchangable meaning, guy, and you're not helping your case. So any three random roles with 'Kirk' 'Spock' and 'McCoy' in them, regardless of the characters they're attached to, is all you're demanding for something to be 'Trek'.

But nice strawman to throw up.
 
It's about the Starship Enterprise with characters named Kirk, Spock and McCoy. That is Star Trek.

So you must have hated the 1980s, 1990s, and last several years, then?

Give me a break, so the only thing that makes something 'Star Trek' is the extremely superficial branding of it? There's no more to it than that? So, you're here because you really like the cast names?!

Seriously, the hell?

Well, I'm going to have to disagree with Blue_Ranger. Being about the starship Enterprise and featuring Kirk, Spock, and McCoy makes it a TOS story. Having the words "Star Trek" on it or being set in the same continuity as TOS is what makes it "Star Trek," which is why ENT, VOY, TNG, and DS9 were also Star Trek.

But, if we're talking the content of the production rather than the title?

It's Star Trek if it tells us a story about humanity's future in partnership with alien species through the United Federation of Planets (or about how they created that Federation) and is fundamentally optimistic about our future. It can go to dark places, but as long as it comes out to the light at the end of the tunnel, then it's Star Trek.

Because, ultimately, Star Trek is not about Kirk and Spock (though they're a huge part of it). It's not about the Enterprise (though that's a huge part of it). It's not about technobabble of minutiae, it's not about the Federation, it's not about Klingons or Borg or space stations or starships or explosions or introspective characterization or music or pointy ears or warp drive.

It's about hope.
 
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