What of the Husnock?

[rfmcdpei]

Over at the TOR blog, Keith DeCandido just posted his take on the third season TNG episode "The Survivors". His rating of 9 out of 10 is entirely apropos for a quiet enough episode that manages to explore SF themes in a very human way. I felt almost sorry for Kevin when I watched it.

I did feel grateful. Kevin wished away the terrifying Husnock, "a species of hideous intelligence that knew only aggression and destruction" that was still apparently social enough to grow into an aggressive civilization of fifty billion people. This fan reconstruction of the Husnock warship created by Kevin suggests, if it was created in the image of the actual Husnock warship that attacked Rana IV, that the Husnock would have been a serious threat species. "Given that the Husnock had apparently just encountered the edge of Federation space, the Douwds actions almost certainly saved the Federation from all-out warfare with them."

Kevin saved the Federation from that, at least. Has there ever been any followup to "The Survivors", whether to Kevin or to the yawning power gap that was created when the Husnock all spontaneously discorporated (or whatever Kevin did to them?). I can't help but think that the episode would have had some serious background repercussions somewhere.

 

[Starbreaker]

Douwd

Our very own Greg Cox's Q-Space, Q-Zone, Q-Strike

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Has there ever been any followup to "The Survivors", whether to Kevin or to the yawning power gap that was created when the Husnock all spontaneously discorporated (or whatever Kevin did to them?). I can't help but think that the episode would have had some serious background repercussions somewhere.

It sounds like the Husnock (if they were described accurately by Kevin, which I think we all accept they were), had a policy of exterminating other races. I suppose any civilization they turned their eye toward was destroyed, either due to power imbalance in favour of the Husnock or simply determination on the Husnock's part. Maybe there were ongoing wars with cultures powerful enough to resist, but I got the impression that the "Here Be Husnock" regions would be like Borg space post-Destiny - nothing much left. Maybe in this case someone else could now go in to claim any natural resources left untouched, but I think it's likely the region's a graveyard. If there were civilizations fending off the Husnock who then had a miracle dropped onto their lap, they'd presumably be new races we hadn't met yet.

I've always been mildly interested in the Husnock. I say mildly, because there's not much of interest in a culture that simply destroys everything in its path and is defined by genocidal xenophobia, but I am a little intrigued as to how such a culture and worldview would develop. What set the Husnock onto that path? And a point you implicitly raise, rfmcdpei, if it's more innate than cultural, how did a species apparently so tied to intense aggression and destructive behaviours become so numerous and such a technologically advanced presence in space?

I doubt a book about Husnock would work (particularly as they died out just as they would have started encountering the UFP), and they sound rather one-note and dull, but an archaeological subplot featuring them, answering a few questions, might be worthwhile. And I think that rather than the Husnock themselves, the most interesting story might focus on any race who were facing extermination only to have their prayers answered in an amazing, if deeply disturbing way. The social, political and spiritual issues arizing from the extinction might well be fascinating...

 

[rfmcdpei]

rfmcdpei, if it's more innate than cultural, how did a species apparently so tied to intense aggression and destructive behaviours become so numerous and such a technologically advanced presence in space?

You presumably could do something along the lines of the intensely sociopathic hive-mind Bugs that Weber and White wrote about in two novels (the second ending, if there's any surprise, with the species' apparent extermination). Or some more normal psychology that simply hadn't encountered anyone capable of fighting back and was bound to be crushed, eventually, after the civilization ran into someone with heft.

I doubt a book about Husnock would work (particularly as they died out just as they would have started encountering the UFP), and they sound rather one-note and dull, but an archaeological subplot featuring them, answering a few questions, might be worthwhile. And I think that rather than the Husnock themselves, the most interesting story might focus on any race who were facing extermination only to have their prayers answered in an amazing, if deeply disturbing way. The social, political and spiritual issues arizing from the extinction might well be fascinating...

In speaking to Kevin and of Kevin in his logs, Picard evoked a bit of "Dear God let's back away quietly and leave him alone before he cracks".

 

[Christopher]

Of course, Kevin's view of the Husnock could've been biased given his anger at what they did. The truth about their society was probably more complicated -- which would make Kevin's crime all the more enormous.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Of course, Kevin's view of the Husnock could've been biased given his anger at what they did. The truth about their society was probably more complicated -- which would make Kevin's crime all the more enormous.

Probably more complicated, but not necessarily that much more.

The Husnock state's chosen method of initiating first contact with the Federation involved the obliteration of the surface of an inhabited planet. Admittedly they may not have known the size or advancement of the Federation--maybe they did only a superficial study of Rana IV and thought it the outlying holding of a smaller and/or less advanced civilization than was the case-- along the lines of the 23rd century or even 22nd century Federation or one of its component states--but it's a method that the Husnock were presumably comfortable with.

(Horrible thought. What if what happened at Rana IV was the product of a rogue ship, or some sort of terrible accident, unrepresentative of the Husnock? Not likely, sure.)

"I didn't kill just one Husnock, or a hundred, or a thousand -- I killed them all. All! The mothers, the babies, all the Husnock everywhere!"

I'd be quite surprised if Rana IV wasn't under some sort of quarantine still.

 

[Christopher]

^And even if a government is aggressively militant, that doesn't mean all its people are, or even that the majority supports them. After all, a government that brutal isn't likely to bother with giving its own people the vote, so it could be a small minority dominating the rest. We may never know.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I actually would find it more interesting if Kevin was right - if the Husnock really were exactly as he described. Enough with the moral relativism and "oh, they're not all that bad"...IMHO, it would be much more terrifying to have a species who really are all bent on one purpose (and are not called Borg ).

Sometimes things aren't so complicated - good old fashioned black-hat evil really does exist.

Besides, Kevin seemed intelligent enough to know what kind of species the Husnock were, well in advance. If their destructive ways really were in the minority, couldn't he have called for help?

 

[Christopher]

It's not about cultural standards, it's about plausibility. In order to develop civilization and advanced technology, a species needs to be capable of cooperation and coordination of labor, needs to have enough economic surplus and leisure time to devote thought and effort to innovation rather than base survival, etc. A species that literally knew only aggression and destruction would, by definition, be incapable of creation, and thus could not create a technological civilization. So even if they've chosen a policy of pure aggression, there would have to be more to their psychology and society than that alone.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Aggression can sustain a species, by always giving them new victims and/or slaves. Invention can make aggression more efficient.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

As usual, the politically correct - and not at all well supported - view from Christopher.

Never mind the fact that science-fiction - even star trek (borg) - depicted on many occasions sociophatic/genocidal species.

Real life history contains a lot of fully functional civilisations that had absolutely NO problem with commiting genocide and a lot of other nasty things - to other fellow humans, no less.

 

[rfmcdpei]

As usual, the politically correct - and not at all well supported - view from Christopher.

Never mind the fact that science-fiction - even star trek (borg) - depicted on many occasions sociophatic/genocidal species.

Real life history contains a lot of fully functional civilisations that had absolutely NO problem with commiting genocide and a lot of other nasty things - to other fellow humans, no less.

Politically correct?

I'm strongly inclined to think that the Husnock polity had no problem at all with annihilating inhabited planets and--who knows?--may have been planning a detailed invasion of the Federation right up to Kevin's surprise action. The Federation probably owes him thanks, of a sort.

I'm also increasingly inclined to recognize that the Husnock were probably not bent in their entirety towards genocide, unless there was some sort of biological impulse towards this xenophobia. There may have been minority cultures, or suppressed cultures; there certainly were the children that Kevin specified he had also killed. Thinking about it, that would almost have to be the case if Kevin's statement was to be truly horrifying: if there weren't innocents but a single hive-mind bent on annihilation, then how horrifying could this be?

(To be sure, even if there was such a hive-mind, it's not likely that the Enterprise-D crew would be jumping with joy at Kevin's genocide. They're of a certain moral stature.)

Going to Earth history, sure, there have been plenty of genocidal regimes. I can't think off-hand of many where there hasn't been some opposition, whether reluctance or full-fledged uprisings. There probably were some good Husnock.

 

[JRoss]

Two words, Christopher: Hive Mind.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Thinking about it, that would almost have to be the case if Kevin's statement was to be truly horrifying: if there weren't innocents but a single hive-mind bent on annihilation, then how horrifying could this be?

(To be sure, even if there was such a hive-mind, it's not likely that the Enterprise-D crew would be jumping with joy at Kevin's genocide. They're of a certain moral stature.)

Both good points. Yes, I suppose from a dramatic angle, to get the full weight of the horror of Kevin's crime, the Husnock have to be assumed to be more than one big horde of viciousness. He had to have struck down fifty billion true individuals, and a host of unique cultures and subcultures, if the scope of the offense is to have its full effect. Still, to argue devils' advocate for a moment (pretending drama is the only concern here, so for the moment I'll overlook Christopher's arguement about the implausibility of Husnock simplicity), Kevin is described as being of "great conscience" as well as great power. Is not that part of his character potentially strengthened dramatically by the idea of the Husnock being far more "straight black hat" than Trek (or, as Christopher notes, reality) would allow? That this being who in rage commits genocide understands and acknowledges the horror of his actions even if the race and culture in question was one to which others might say "good riddance!"? So I think from the dramatic angle either interpretation of the Husnock might work, even if only one of those interpretations is plausible.

 

[Sci]

As usual, the politically correct - and not at all well supported - view from Christopher.

Saying that a technological species needs to be capable of collaborative thought and actions and of generating enough economic surplus to support activities beyond base survival is not being "politically correct," it's just basic logic.

Never mind the fact that science-fiction - even star trek (borg) - depicted on many occasions sociophatic/genocidal species.

Christopher did not contest the idea that a culture or polity may be generally genocidal towards outsiders, he contested the idea that a species or culture could literally be said to know nothing but violence and aggression.

And the Borg are not a species; they're an artificial intelligence run amok.

Real life history contains a lot of fully functional civilisations that had absolutely NO problem with commiting genocide and a lot of other nasty things - to other fellow humans, no less.

Yes. And every last one of them was also capable of much more than just aggression and violence -- because if they didn't, they wouldn't have been able to commit atrocities against their chosen targets. The Holocaust required an awful lot of cooperative behavior amongst an awful lot of Germans to carry it out.

Again, Christopher's point was not to say, "Oh, they're not REALLY genocidal." His point was that even a culture pursuing genocidal policies towards outsiders would inherently need to be capable of more than that just to be capable of functioning as a culture.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

... the Husnock, a species of hideous intelligence who knew only aggression and destruction.

The phrase "who knew only" is well-known to be hyperbolic, meaning "who knew predominantly" or "who knew prominently". Example uses are:

1. To our little cat Nika, who knew only love... [http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977903841]
2. However, my mom's pick for my father's successor was an emotionally unhealthy man who knew only self-loathing and pettiness. [http://www.insightsoftheheart.com/AboutBrit.htm]
3. He was a man who knew only how to give, but never to take. [http://www.coastweek.com/obit/obit-46.htm]

The absurdity of the literal interpretation is the clue that the hyperbole is what's intended. Notice that these examples are all epitaphs of one kind or another, although the second example just expresses how the writer will remember one of his mother's significant others.

Thus, while Kevin's expression about the Husnock has the qualities of an epitaph, and an extraordinarily unflattering one, I never believed it was intended to be interpreted literally. It just means that the pursuits of the Husnock would invariably turn towards aggression and destruction.

 

[Christopher]

As usual, the politically correct - and not at all well supported - view from Christopher....

Real life history contains a lot of fully functional civilisations that had absolutely NO problem with commiting genocide and a lot of other nasty things - to other fellow humans, no less.

Huh? You've completely misunderstood my point. I don't deny for a minute that there are civilizations whose leaders, or whose majority, embrace genocidal war. But still, somebody within those societies has to be able to invent and build the weapons they use. Somebody within those societies has to be able to teach those inventors. Somebody has to be able to write the books that are used to teach them. Somebody has to stitch their clothes together. Somebody has to build their houses and maintain their roads. Somebody has to grow their food. Somebody has to clear away their garbage. They have to be capable of forming pair bonds in order to reproduce, and have to have enough feeling for their children in order to keep them long enough to educate them and instill the society's values in them. If they literally knew only aggression, they would lack the other behaviors that are necessary to enable any civilization, even one dominated by aggressive policies, to function as a civilization in the first place.

I'm not talking about politics at all. I have no ideological stake here, I'm simply examining the question scientifically. I'm talking about logistics, about the full range of roles that are needed in order to support an aggressive, genocidal civilization. Its population can't consist exclusively of warriors, any more than a car can consist exclusively of wheels. The warriors need people filling other social roles to sustain their lives and activities. (Which is the biggest problem with the way the Klingons are usually portrayed. There's no such thing as a "warrior race." There must be Klingon farmers and teachers and engineers and so forth, and they'd have to outnumber the snarling, armor-clad space Vikings by a considerable margin.)

Two words, Christopher: Hive Mind.

Has no bearing on my point. Even in a hive culture, there would still need to be individuals specialized for non-aggressive tasks such as agriculture, maintenance, research, etc. Technological civilization doesn't just happen. It can't arise from instinct. It needs a complex, multi-tiered, multi-specialized social organization to enable it to come about.

The phrase "who knew only" is well-known to be hyperbolic, meaning "who knew predominantly" or "who knew prominently".

Yes, that's the whole point -- that Kevin's words cannot be taken literally. True, it could be that the civilization as a whole was predominantly dedicated to aggression and destruction, that even the majority of non-warriors who grew the food and built the homes and roads and ships and taught the children and so forth were ideologically dedicated to that goal of conquest, that dissidents to that belief were ruthlessly exterminated so that no significant core of dissent existed. Or it could be that only the leaders and military were dedicated to conquest and the majority were oppressed and enslaved innocents. We can't know which from the evidence we have, since Kevin was clearly not an unbiased observer and we have no independent corroboration. The range of possibilities is wide open.

And I'm not making this as an ideological point, and I'm bewildered that anyone would interpret this as a political debate, of all things. I'm certainly not favoring one interpretation over the others, because my whole point is that we don't have enough evidence about the Husnock to favor any interpretation. And from a writer's perspective, it would be a waste of potential to fixate on only one interpretation of Kevin's words and ignore all the others, since there could be cool stories arising from those others.

 

[JRoss]

Duh, Christopher. A hive mind can be composed of individuals assigned various tasks but all with the same goal, yet collectivist enough to keep from killing one another as they reach toward the stars.

 

[Christopher]

^Even so, they do by definition know things other than aggression and destruction. And "duh" is not part of a civilized intellectual discussion. There's no reason for personal hostility when we're just exploring ideas in the abstract.

 

[JRoss]

Pardon. That's a given, Christopher. I'm sure that you've heard of hyperbole? I posit that there could, in fact, exist an alien culture so opposed to "us" that they were beyond "redemption" and we would be within our rights to eradicate them?