What next for Section 31? [SPOILERS]

[Avro Arrow]

^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.

I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.

And if its a situation where there is a ticking clock that not's really a good thing since legislative bodies aren't known for rapid decision making.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

I don't play Halo, but I'm going to guess based on context that you're talking about something other than rising water levels!

 

[Sci]

^ What would a situation be where they would "need" it? It certainly wouldn't be considered a "measured" response even in the episode Kirk threatened to use it in. Even if you're trying to destroy, say, a random Shedai on the surface of a planet, glassing the *entire* surface would be extreme overkill. I'm really surprised Starfleet has such a general order in the first place.

I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

Well it's not like Starfleet ships don't have the capability to do it if they so desired. I think the whole point of the amendment is to take the option off the table except for cases where it might call for the Federation Council to debate it.

And if its a situation where there is a ticking clock that not's really a good thing since legislative bodies aren't known for rapid decision making.

If there were ever a legitimate need to glass a planetary surface, a decent captain would issue the order come what may and then take responsibility afterwards. Meanwhile, not having it be strictly illegal is just begging for someone to come along and find loopholes and abuses and use it when it's not appropriate.

 

[Nob Akimoto]

Also, I'd imagine that amendment was also about placating rival powers on meta weapons like weaponized Genesis. They agreed they wouldn't destroy entire planetary surfaces and by extension that sort of technology wouldn't be used. It's basically the NPT of the Trekverse. Evidently that doesn't prevent say Sisko from destroying an entire biosphere. Or for that matter Starfleet ships from having equipment capability of destroying entire STAR SYSTEMS not just planets.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I was thinking more of in case Starfleet encountered something like the Flood from Halo aka something you want to make damed sure is dead or else the galactic apocalypse will result when it figures out how to get off the planet.

I don't play Halo, but I'm going to guess based on context that you're talking about something other than rising water levels!

Think of the Borg only organic based and 1000 times worse and assimilation is permanent as there is nothing left of the victim and the ability to rapidly spread over an entire planet to the point that the ancient race that fought them could only stop them by using a weapon that destroyed all sapient life in the galaxy.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Also, I'd imagine that amendment was also about placating rival powers on meta weapons like weaponized Genesis. They agreed they wouldn't destroy entire planetary surfaces and by extension that sort of technology wouldn't be used. It's basically the NPT of the Trekverse. Evidently that doesn't prevent say Sisko from destroying an entire biosphere. Or for that matter Starfleet ships from having equipment capability of destroying entire STAR SYSTEMS not just planets.

What biosphere did Sisko destroy? There was the planet with the Maquis population he made uninhabitable for non-Cardassians, I know.

That amendment was named as the "Eminiar Amendment" by Min Zife, suggesting that it was created in response to the situation involving that planet in TOS.

 

[rfmcdpei]

As Bashir said to Sloan in episode “Inter Arma…”: “This war isn't over and you're already planning for the next!”.

I'm not sure that you're accurately reading Bashir's statement. For starters, he wasn't giving Sloan and Section 31 a compliment.

I was quoting Bashir to highlight the tactical and forward thinking practices of S31. You may not agree with that statement but Admiral Ross did when SI and S31 got rid of Senator Cretak (even when she was an ally of the Federation) just because she could eventually turn against them. (DS9 Inter Arma...)

And again, I'll note that Bashir did not intend that as a compliment. Going to the script makes that clear.

BASHIR
(harsh)
You set her up! She was an
innocent woman and you let Sloan
destroy her! Why? She believed
in the Alliance -- she was on our
side!

ROSS
No. She wasn't. I told you
before, Julian, she's a patriot.
Which means that if it served the
interests of the Romulans to
negotiate a separate peace with
the Dominion... Cretak would've
pushed for that option. And,
believe me, the Dominion would
like nothing better than to make
a deal with the Romulans right
now.

BASHIR
So Koval becomes your guarantee
that that won't happen. As a man
who was nearly "killed" for his
anti-Federation activities, his
recommendation to stay in the war
will be all the more convincing.

ROSS
That's the general idea.

And in fairness, that idea is questionable. Is Cretak, a woman who joined with a Federation doctor to track down an agency corrupting the policies of both polities, really a better ally for the Federation than a Koval who wanted to weaponize the Quickening?

Starfleet, yes, but not the civilian populations.

If you haven’t seen DS9 episode “The Quickening” you may read about it in http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Quickening_(episode)
It takes place in DS9 season 4 and it’s about a civil population in the Gamma Quadrant slowly dying because The Dominion infected them with a plague after they defied them.

That's right. As you'll recall from earlier in this thread, I mentioned that plague as an example of something that the Dominion apparently did not inflict on the Federation Alliance's civilian populations in the Dominion War.

My thoughts based on ST canon and real life facts is that being without conscience or being unaccountable
unfortunately does not necessarily means you are heading for a doom. If nowadays cases of corporate accountability are complex, try it on an organization that is not even registered.

And this is a good thing?

You presented the case on how incompetent Section 31 is pictured on the books. I only read The Abbys but on it, they manipulated Locken and then they sent Bashir to stop him because he “was nuts and a danger for the Federation”.

Section 31 tried to take over a Jem'Hadar breeding outpost for its own uses, and nearly started a galactic war after the agent it sent went mad and tried to create his own empire starting with a bioweapons attack on Romulan holdings.

Where is the Church Committee to rein in this agency?

And as I stated before, according to canon Section 31 has been around for 200+years and the Federation is still standing. So, either they must have been doing something right or they have biggest streak of sheer dumb luck in non written history!

We know nothing about its levels of activity in Federation history. We do know that, on multiple occasions, it has nearly endangered the survival of the Federation on multiple instances and was saved only by people coming in to cover up its errors. I'd suggest that Section 31's record of gaffes when it tries to intervene in galactic affairs or alien politics indicate it is geared more towards internal Federation affairs and/or alien civilizations that aren't very impressive, minimizing the risk of causing a war.

We also know that, in the end, Section 31 was uncovered and uprooted for the good of all. It's just a matter of describing how this goes. Was it an instance of one of Section 31's moves finally becoming something it couldn't cover up?