What makes a good female character?

[Owain Taggart]

One of my favourite female characters is Erica Strange from Being Erica. She's constantly on a journey of self-discovery, and able to grow beyond her mistakes and flaws. I've found her to be one of the more realistic and well-rounded female characters I've seen.

 

[Kor]

I think that strength and confidence are positive aspects for any character.

However, I do not like aggressiveness. I find it disrespectful, distasteful and obnoxious, no matter who it's coming from. I avoid people like that in real life, and I don't like fictional characters who behave that way. I would not enjoy that quality at all in the main protagonist of a story, but it would have its place in a secondary character such as the main character's boss or a rival, for purposes of conflict or drama.

Kor

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Depends on where that aggressiveness is channeled. In action contexts the more aggressive characters can be the most fun ones.

 

[Kor]

That's a good point. But for aggressive characters in an action context, the first one that comes to mind for me is the redshirt in ST:09 who quickly got himself vaporized at the mining platform.

Kor

 

[gblews]

I think you can learn a lot about this just from watching Jessica Jones and Supergirl. Both shows center on female characters who have exceptional physical strength, but that physical power isn't what makes them "strong" characters.

Except that, and this may be slightly off topic, but Jessica Jones presents a well rounded strong female character by the lead character's actions, while Supergirl tends to lecture the audience about it.

 

[Mr Light]

I did think there was an excellent Supergirl moment on this week's episode, where she goes in to stop a robbery knowing she's powerless. Now THAT'S being a positive role model.

 

[Mr Light]

http://www.bloombergview.com/articl...t-of-cheating-at-feminism?cmpid=yhoo.headline
Interesting article about Jessica Jones which brings up the things I was asking about. Was Hogarth a well written female character? This (female) author didn't think so.

 

[Christopher]

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-14/-jessica-jones-is-sort-of-cheating-at-feminism?cmpid=yhoo.headline
Interesting article about Jessica Jones which brings up the things I was asking about. Was Hogarth a well written female character? This (female) author didn't think so.

Wow, I don't agree at all. Yes, Hogarth was gender-swapped from the comics and her role in the story was one that would traditionally be filled by a man, but I don't agree with the premise that no woman on the face of the planet could ever be so insensitive to her partners' feelings. That's just silly, and sexist in itself. Being insensitive to women's feelings isn't an intrinsically masculine trait. There are men who are very attuned to women's feelings, and there are women who are callous and selfish jerks. What's effective about JJ's feminism is that it doesn't idealize women, but allows them to be just as diversely written as male characters, and to fill a wide range of story niches rather than a finite few that are deemed appropriately feminine. By claiming that all female characters in relationships must be portrayed as sensitive to their partners, the article writer is engaging in the same kind of sexual stereotyping she purports to be denouncing.

I also disagree with the author about other things. She says Kilgrave is too lacking in complexity or redeeming traits, but I think he's a pretty effective portrait of a psychopath. Because Kilgrave can make people do whatever he wants, he hasn't needed to learn empathy or consideration. Since childhood, he's treated other people as his playthings. He's Anthony Fremont all grown up, except without the power to send people to the cornfield.

And I think she's jumping to a conclusion by saying Jessica is an alcoholic. Jessica drinks heavily because it numbs her psychological pain and dulls her memories, not because she has a physical dependency. This article about the comics character describes it thusly:

She drinks a lot to cope with her depression - which of course doesn’t actually help any. All-night drinking binges in shitty bars are not unusual for her, but she isn’t an actual alcoholic yet - quite probably due to her slightly superhuman constitution. It messes up her life, but she’s not physically addicted. She’s also a smoker, but not a chain-smoker and probably not addicted to nicotine.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Being insensitive to women's feelings isn't an intrinsically masculine trait. There are men who are very attuned to women's feelings, and there are women who are callous and selfish jerks.

This is the reason Elaine Benis is such a great character. Most women in sitcoms are paragons of sensitivity and understanding. The man acts like a jerk and offends them, then the man realizes he was a jerk and makes up for it. Men are only willing to date the most attractive of idealized women but women accept and love men for who they are.

Elaine on the other hand is just as shallow and superficial as Jerry and George. She judges men solely based on attractiveness and masculinity, isn't offended by the suggestion of sex but won't have it with you unless she wants to.

On the other hand you have characters like Annie Edison from Community who are both feminine and feminist. Vulnerable and at times fawning over men while at the same time strong and intelligent.

 

[Cyke101]

I can't quite find the article, but I remember reading one about how Jessica Jones nailed the different types of misogyny out there, as well as how people like Jessica and Trish fight it on a daily basis. There's the white knight misogynist in Simpson, and the nice guy misogynist in Kilgrave, both of whom are obviously problematic but try to keep explaining themselves as not. by contrast, we have Malcolm and Luke Cage, who try to support without taking over the situation, and Jessica continues to take center stage.

 

[Christopher]

^Interesting. I wouldn't have pegged Simpson as a misogynist, just as a hyperaggressive macho type. I hope you can find the article again.

 

[Timewalker]

It's always interesting to read reviews and opinions about the treatment of women in media. The debate between what is positive and what isn't, what is feminism and what isn't.

...

So what's a strong female portrayal? I always strive to have prominent positive female characters in my stories and I always wonder if I'm doing enough to that end.

I often hear about a character "having agency", controlling his/her own life and not existing as a component of another stronger character. Someone who does what she wants to do, and not what a man in her life wants to do, etc, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test
And of course there's the Bechdel test. There must be at least two female characters and they must talk about something other than a man.

But what's the line between including M/F relationships and romance in a sensible way and going too far? What defines a positive feminist M/F relationship?

And of course one wants to avoid stereotypical overly emotional portrayals of women. But what's the line there? Should we strive to be gender neutral, where the gender is utterly irrelevant to the personality? For example Starbuck in NuBSG.

Should a "strong" female character mean aggressiveness and confidence? How much self doubt is allowed?

My favorite female characters in literature are those in the C.J. Cherryh Alliance/Union series and the Merovingen Nights books. Whether the character serves on a merchant ship, warship, is a politician on a space station, a 16-year-old "canal rat" in Merovingen-Below (Merovingen is a city much like Venice - full of canals and Renaissance intrigue among the various tiers of society, but on another planet in the 33rd century) or an aristocrat from Merovingen-Above, or Ariane Emory who in essence rules a whole planet... they're all fascinating characters. Most of her female characters are very strong-minded, confident women, but not to the point that they're perfect. They all have their flaws and problems, but even the worst of the lot (ie. Marie Hawkins, in Tripoint) has a plausible reason for her character flaws.

Now take the flip side: Liesel Selene Moray, in F.M. Busby's Hulzein novels. Most of Busby's female characters are tough; they have to be, to survive in that series' milieu. There's a dialogue exchange in Young Rissa, when Rissa meets a spaceship captain and they don't hit it off: "You know what? You're not a very feminine woman, are you?" "I did not have a very feminine upbringing. I am as I am."

Rissa has understandable reasons for why she said that. But Liesel, her daughter? She, while tough and pragmatic, is also pretty damn obnoxious. She was a nice enough child character, but add 10 years and she became really unlikable. I've never encountered any Hulzein Saga fan who likes this character. I don't know if that's what Busby was going for, or if he just wanted to show that children of parents who had rough lives don't tend to be sentimental or overly nice... but if he meant for this character to appeal to his readers, he misjudged the situation.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

One of the problems with a lot of male/female relationships in fiction is not that a woman falls in love with a man so much that the woman is treated like a reward for the man being a good guy. The audience is put in a position where if the woman were to choose a man she finds more attractive than the lovable protagonist, she'd be seen as a heartless bitch, when all she did was choose the man she wanted and not who the audience was made to think 'deserved' her.

As much as I enjoyed The Office, it's super guilty of this, where the woman is put in a relationship with a guy who's kind of a jerk and designed for the nicer guy to 'deserve' her.

A counterpoint though is the creatively similar Parks & Recreation where they didn't really do this. Ben didn't 'Win' Leslie, they just kinda both really liked each other. In the other cases, the nice guy never just 'Got' the woman he was pining for. They moved on to other women who pined back, they made pragmatic parental arrangements that led to falling in love, they tried dating and realized they had nothing in common. No man or woman was coerced by audience desire to date a person they didn't find attractive.

 

[Taylirious]

I always thought Buffy Summers from the TV show Buffy The Vampire Slayer was a good example of a strong female character.

 

[Mr Light]

I would agree with you on Buffy in S1-3, but she became very unlikable to me after that. And the less said about her relationship with Spike and S6 in general, the better...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I liked Buffy the whole way through. Hard to blame her for being depressed in S6 and feeling more and more isolated as her enemies got stronger. I agree it's an example of a strong female character but superhuman strength is kinda cheating.

 

[Mr Light]

Fred on Angel was another good character. Particularly when she was on her own during the S4 Jasmine arc.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

She's already been brought up but I like Supergirl portrayed by Melissa Benoist. Yes, she is very cute...but she's tough, vulnerable and always learning. She could also arguably be more deadlier than Superman. For instance: Supergirl, at least in the comics, can go off on a hypothetical enemy w/o caring. Sure, she'll want to keep innocents safe and she'll want to do the right thing in handling said hypothetical villain, but she won't mind breaking a few bones just to put the pest down.

So many feel that a female character should be 'masculine' and shouldn't wear a skirt....otherwise she is a stereotype. As if a strong woman is suddenly 'weak' because of her feminity and because she doesn't wear pants. Berman Star Trek had this idea as did some 'fans,' which is why we saw extremely conservative clothing on the women for TNG onward.

I digress, though.

A strong female character, to echo a poster above, should be just as three dimensional as the male character. She shouldn't just be 'the prize' in an action film or a romantic movie.

In the Youtube video by What the Flick where they review Quentin Tarantino's "Hateful Eight" they talk about criticism received by viewers because Jennifer Jason Leigh's female prisoner gets insulted and punched like the men.

Hmmm...Why not?

I just saw "Lucy" with Scarlett Johanssen (a lot better than I thought it would be) and she gets punched and insulted....but comes back and punches her enemies back literally and figuratively.

Basically, sometimes men (as well as women) can be sexist when it comes to saying how a woman should be. When a woman should suppress her femininity (or even her sexuality) and wear certain clothing just to be considered 'strong.'

 

[gblews]

I would agree with you on Buffy in S1-3, but she became very unlikable to me after that. And the less said about her relationship with Spike and S6 in general, the better...

Why would your disliking her in seasons 4 -7 cause Buffy to be less pf a strong female character?

And as fpr Spike, she was in complete control of the relationship start to finish.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're forgetting about the rape.

Buffy wasn't in control of herself either.

Spike was safe.

She couldn't hurt him, or didn't care if she did hurt him, and if and when he inevitably betrayed her it wasn't her fault for being worthless who deserved to be abused, because he didn't have a soul, it was just something that had to happen.

Riley needed Vampire prostitutes to take the edge off, from dealing with the day to day with Buffy.