What makes a crew a "Starfleet" crew?

[AuntKate]

Janeway says she wants Voyager to be a Starfleet ship, but is that really possible in their situation? Is she really just saying that the ship will adhere, as much as possible, to Starfleet principles? And, if so, is she the one to decide which principles?

Isn't that more or less what happened on the Equinox? Ransom decided what principles they would use and what they would ignore. Is that crew a "Starfleet crew" as well?

This is a question I've been pondering, so what do you think?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Presumably there are rules about ethical behavior that Starfleet crews need to follow.

 

[AuntKate]

^^I suppose that must be part of it, but there must be more than just that. Since the Equinox crew apparently did not follow some of the ethical behavior, are they NOT a Starfleet crew, after all?

 

[froot]

Honestly, if they had wanted to adhere blindly to the PD and be perfectly rule-bound-Starfleet folks, they would have self-destructed the moment they got stuck out in the DQ. Their very presence out there was going to change things, no matter how much they tiptoed around.

The PD's a good set of guidelines, and they obviously did try to stick to it where possible, but sometimes going by the individual situation was the best tactic and they went that route instead. I guess I'm not sure if that made them less-than-Starfleet.

Janeway was a bit too hard-nosed with the Kazon at times, and I am happy when she called the shots a bit more as the series progressed. I know some people despised this, but it made a lot more sense to me. The PD just wasn't written for their situation.

They still were Starfleet in the way they ran the ship, in their dress, in their attitude, and in their willingness to explore strange phenomena and assist people in distress. I think the desire to explore and help is more "Starfleet" than simply reading rote from their rulebook, but again, I'm not sure.

I don't think the Equinox was exactly Starfleet anymore by the time Voyager found 'em - Ransom's killing spree wasn't the only way the Equinox turned its back on 'Fleet ideals. They were also rather lax with the usual rules and roles, perhaps out of necessity, but lax all the same. They were also very quick to throw another 'Fleet ship to the wolves to cover their asses.

 

[PrimaryAdjunct]

Is there not a caveat in the PD about the preservation of the crew coming first? I know theres one about the whole federation being in jeopardy. Anyway what makes a crew strafleet, well hmm, dificult one, in the context of the episode i think she meant a crew that functions excellently as well as obeying all star fleet general orders, we actually see them dealwith all the exceptions to The PD, the temporal prime directive,alltogether too many times, and the omega directive in that one episode.

 

[Captrek]

^^I suppose that must be part of it, but there must be more than just that. Since the Equinox crew apparently did not follow some of the ethical behavior, are they NOT a Starfleet crew, after all?

Janeway and Voyager didn’t follow some of those rules of ethical behavior either.

 

[Shatnertage]

I was wondering something similar. If all the Maquis folks ditched their old clothes and got standard-issue Starfleet uniforms and presumably commissions/enlistments, why not Neelix and Kes? After all, they had more of a claim to be "Starfleet" than some of the Maquis, if only because their presence on Voyager was completely consensual. Seven should have been given a regular uniform and posting when it became clear she was part of the crew.

 

[F. King Daniel]

We've seen Starfleet crews do some pretty crazy things over the decades. Captain Archer turned space pirate, and he was meant to be the prototype starship captain (at least, retroactively). Kirk destroyed the way of life on a half-dozen worlds. Sisko used bioweapons, putting thousands at risk, to one-up his nemesis Eddington. Sisko was also peripherally involved in the murder of a Romulan senator.

Every Trek captain and crew has blatantly disregarded orders at one time or another, and more often than not been rewarded for it.

Starfleet isn't as clean and shiny as they'd have you think.

 

[Captrek]

Captain Archer turned space pirate, and he was meant to be the prototype starship captain (at least, retroactively).

If you’re referring to the stolen warp coil, I don’t think you’re being fair to Archer. He, as he said, had “no choice.” There were billions of lives at stake, so he did what he had to do, and he felt terrible about it.

Kirk mucked with the way of life on a number of worlds, but in each case he thought he was improving the way of life there, and the audience was meant to agree.

Even Sisko felt pretty bad about his involvement in the death of Vreenak, though he said, “I can live with it.”

Janeway has a habit of disregarding the rights of others when they get in the way of the interests of those she cares about (usually her crew), and does so without any sign of remorse.

 

[froot]

Starfleet isn't as clean and shiny as they'd have you think.

Or any military, really, methinks. But stuff's just plain old not black and white, even in the happy future.

 

[CoveTom]

Honestly, if they had wanted to adhere blindly to the PD and be perfectly rule-bound-Starfleet folks, they would have self-destructed the moment they got stuck out in the DQ. Their very presence out there was going to change things, no matter how much they tiptoed around.

Well, that depends on how you interpret the Prime Directive. The PD doesn't say they can't change anything. Hell, if that were the case, then Starfleet couldn't even be out in space to begin with. It says that you can't do anything to interfere in the natural development of a society and, in particular, a pre-warp society that has not yet ventured into space in any significant manner.

This isn't a case of Voyager being sent back through time and having to avoid contact with anyone and everyone in order to not pollute the timeline. Even though the circumstances were strange, Voyager's presence in the Delta Quadrant was no more out of line with the PD than the Defiant's presence in the Gamma Quadrant. As long as they avoided contact with pre-warp species, and didn't share technology, I would think they would be okay, PD-wise.

Is there not a caveat in the PD about the preservation of the crew coming first?

Actually, I always got the impression that it was the exact opposite. That Starfleet officers swear to uphold the PD even to the sacrificing of their own lives. I would think it would be felt that an entire ship should be willing to be sacrificed to avoid violating the PD. In reality, though, we know that would not be how it happened in execution and, indeed, we've seen many a Starfleet crew unwilling to make that kind of sacrifice in the name of the PD.

 

[froot]

Captain Archer turned space pirate, and he was meant to be the prototype starship captain (at least, retroactively).

If you’re referring to the stolen warp coil, I don’t think you’re being fair to Archer. He, as he said, had “no choice.” There were billions of lives at stake, so he did what he had to do, and he felt terrible about it.

Kirk mucked with the way of life on a number of worlds, but in each case he thought he was improving the way of life there, and the audience was meant to agree.

Even Sisko felt pretty bad about his involvement in the death of Vreenak, though he said, “I can live with it.”

Janeway has a habit of disregarding the rights of others when they get in the way of the interests of those she cares about (usually her crew), and does so without any sign of remorse.

Wait, the others get a pass because they felt bad? Janeway felt plenty horrible after (froot don't you bring it up don't you do it don't you do it) that certain transporter accident I shall not name as well as other incidents... and she never gets any quarter for those.

Again, if they really wanted to play nice and not step on toes, they should have just blown up on day one.

They offered aid to others, they responded to all distress calls, and they generally attempted to pass through alien backyards without causing too much grief. For all the examples of saber-rattling and outright fighting, there's just as many where they used diplomacy.

If they were entirely at fault for a mess (Flesh and Blood, Dreadnought), they'd clean it up. If there was something new to study, they'd stop to check it out (The Cloud, Thirty Days, Blink of an Eye, The Q and the Grey.) They even kept with the grand Starfleet tradition of driving headlong into creepy nebulae that were either sentient beings, gave everyone horrific burns, or were sentient beings that also gave horrific burns.

It might even be in the Starfleet handbook somewhere that every Starfleet crew has to drive into weird nebulae every month.

 

[F. King Daniel]

All I know about the Starfleet handbook is that every starship captain must, at some point, undertake a mission in Earth's past. No exceptions.

 

[Captrek]

Captain Archer turned space pirate, and he was meant to be the prototype starship captain (at least, retroactively).

If you’re referring to the stolen warp coil, I don’t think you’re being fair to Archer. He, as he said, had “no choice.” There were billions of lives at stake, so he did what he had to do, and he felt terrible about it.

Kirk mucked with the way of life on a number of worlds, but in each case he thought he was improving the way of life there, and the audience was meant to agree.

Even Sisko felt pretty bad about his involvement in the death of Vreenak, though he said, “I can live with it.”

Janeway has a habit of disregarding the rights of others when they get in the way of the interests of those she cares about (usually her crew), and does so without any sign of remorse.

Wait, the others get a pass because they felt bad?

No, Archer and Sisko get a pass because they saved billions of lives and Kirk gets a pass because he (presumably) improved the lives of the people he affected.

Janeway simply disregarded the rights of others when it interfered with what she wanted.

I’m going through the series right now and the last episode I watched is YOH1, so here are a couple of examples from two of the last three episodes I’ve watched.

In The Raven, she is trying to negotiate a way through B’omar space. The B’omar are willing, but because of what sound like very legitimate national security considerations, the process of getting Voyager through their space will take a few weeks. Janeway considers that unacceptable because she has 130 people who are anxious to get home and in her mind that trumps the B’omar’s security considerations, so negotiations stall. Then Seven goes off half cocked into B’omar space and attacks B’omar ships; Janeway follows her with Voyager and also attacks B’omar ships who are doing absolutely nothing wrong.

In YOH1, the Krenim tell her that Voyager is violating Krenim space. She openly mocks them and tells them Krenim territorial claims are irrelevant unless they have the military capacity to threaten Voyager, so Voyager will continue to travel deeper into the disputed territory.

I can’t imagine Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Archer acting like that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Janeway says she wants Voyager to be a Starfleet ship, but is that really possible in their situation?

I think it is. If they try hard enough. Principles must be inviolate, or they do not exist.

Is she really just saying that the ship will adhere, as much as possible, to Starfleet principles? And, if so, is she the one to decide which principles?

Yes, absolutely. Janeway is the captain. What she says, goes.

 

[CoveTom]

Yes, absolutely. Janeway is the captain. What she says, goes.

Well, by the book, that's true. But when you're 70,000 light years from the nearest other Starfleet installation, if the rest of the crew decided Janeway was wrong and staged a mutiny, what would stop them?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Their conscience?

 

[Captrek]

A lot of the things she does, like committing acts of war against the wholly innocent B’omar, would get her relieved of command if they were in contact with the Federation, which they’re not, and there were any sanity in this series, which there isn’t.

Yes, absolutely. Janeway is the captain. What she says, goes.

Well, by the book, that's true.

Book, shmook. In the teaser of Year of Hell Part II, the doctor tries to assert his authority as CMO over a medical matter, and Janeway, with her intimidating demeanor, overrides him. What she says goes, whether the Starfleet book gives her authority or not. They should change her designation from “Captain Janeway” to “Queen Kathryn I.”

 

[CoveTom]

^ I'm pretty sure that was my point.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Yes, absolutely. Janeway is the captain. What she says, goes.

Well, by the book, that's true. But when you're 70,000 light years from the nearest other Starfleet installation, if the rest of the crew decided Janeway was wrong and staged a mutiny, what would stop them?

Your'e kidding, right?

JANEWAY would stop them!

Sheesh.