What made Spock better in s02e01?

[LadyT'Anna]

Moreover, in Voyager's "Blood Fever," B'Elanna Torres rejects Vorik's attentions despite the telepathic bond that the ensign initiates, but neither the rejection nor the bond serves as a cure. Indeed, B'Elanna ends up challenging Vorik (and incidentally winning the fight), and only after that is the fever purged from the two of them.

In that episode, B'Elanna essentially played the part of a Vulcan male - due to the bond attempt that went awry, B'Elanna became a "second Vorik".

But going back to the conditions as set in "Amok Time" (which is a somewhat bad example because the male there is only half-Vulcan and is explicitly having an abnormal pon farr), Vulcan males according to Spock don't have to "mate" - they have to "find a mate" or "take a wife". Whether there's sex afterwards is not said out loud (which is to be expected in a 1960s show). And Spock found a mate...

...One who happened to reject him. After that, there was a duel, the rules of which dictated a fight to the death. But that was just rules, not biology.

Essentially, we have seen many a Vulcan in the throes of pon farr, and there's never any death involved. Spock may be talking out of his ass in "Amok Time", either because he is too damn secretive and tries to cover the embarrassing truth in silly lies; because he is ignorant of the facts of life, especially because of being confused by his dualistic biology; or because he's already crazy with lust and just babbling nonsense. Note that he compares pon farr to the mating drive of the salmon - which is wildly inaccurate because the salmon only mate once in life, and die immediately afterwards, whereas Vulcans have a repeating cycle as established in later episodes.

We could always take Spock literally, though. What he really says is "..We are driven by forces we cannot control to return home and take a wife. Or die." The "or die" part may well refer to the (rare) duel and its known risks, rather than to any inevitable loss of life from failure to return home.

Timo Saloniemi

Beautiful catch re: the salmon, Timo. (Pun intended, of course, not that I'm fishing for compliments. ) That lapse of Spock's is enough to convince me that he is indeed babbling and otherwise non compos mentis. But I don't think that his "or die" remark refers solely to the posited results of a duel, for two reasons. In the first place, McCoy tells Kirk early on that Spock will die from a biochemical imbalance unless the Enterprise can reach Vulcan without delay, and Spock knows this, hence his remark to McCoy about the medical examination not making any difference. In the second place, Spock doesn't tell Kirk or McCoy about the duel because he doesn't think there's going to be one, and he doesn't want to alarm them any more than he has done already.

 

[Timo]

In the first place, McCoy tells Kirk early on that Spock will die from a biochemical imbalance unless the Enterprise can reach Vulcan without delay, and Spock knows this

Actually, that must be the other way around. Sure, McCoy can tell that Spock is dying. But only Spock can claim that going to Vulcan would be of help! McCoy wouldn't have any basis for arguing that a biochemical imbalance will get better if Spock changes location, but he might have a reason to trust Spock on this. And the question then goes, is that trust misplaced?

In the second place, Spock doesn't tell Kirk or McCoy about the duel because he doesn't think there's going to be one, and he doesn't want to alarm them any more than he has done already.

Why wouldn't he want to alarm his friends? The sandworms are already out of the can, and Spock has every logical and emotional reason to heighten the urgency of his plea, with misleading half-truths if necessary.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

In the first place, McCoy tells Kirk early on that Spock will die from a biochemical imbalance unless the Enterprise can reach Vulcan without delay, and Spock knows this

Actually, that must be the other way around. Sure, McCoy can tell that Spock is dying. But only Spock can claim that going to Vulcan would be of help! McCoy wouldn't have any basis for arguing that a biochemical imbalance will get better if Spock changes location, but he might have a reason to trust Spock on this. And the question then goes, is that trust misplaced?
....

Timo Saloniemi

I would say that McCoy wants to change Spock's location insofar as he (McCoy) lacks the medical knowledge about what the heck is happening (note that even in the 24th Century, the EMH says that the medical database is still very sketchy on what's really going on due to Vulcans being extra private about such things). McCoy no doubt wants to hurry Spock to Vulcan so actual Vulcan doctors who specialize in all things Vulcan can provide treatment that is beyond McCoy's own competence.

--Alex

 

[Timo]

Hmm. In that case, why not ask Vulcan for help first? If they don't respond to McCoy's subspace hails, it's unlikely they would respond well to McCoy barging in on their medical facilities, either. Or leaving Spock on their doorstep in a big basket.

On the other hand, is McCoy even remotely correct about Spock dying? If the onset of human puberty took three days, McCoy's first encounter with that phenomenon would surely lead to a "He's dying, Jim!" diagnosis, too! The signs may all point towards impending death at the moment, but there are kinks to the path...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

In the first place, McCoy tells Kirk early on that Spock will die from a biochemical imbalance unless the Enterprise can reach Vulcan without delay, and Spock knows this

Actually, that must be the other way around. Sure, McCoy can tell that Spock is dying. But only Spock can claim that going to Vulcan would be of help! McCoy wouldn't have any basis for arguing that a biochemical imbalance will get better if Spock changes location, but he might have a reason to trust Spock on this. And the question then goes, is that trust misplaced?
....

Timo Saloniemi

I would say that McCoy wants to change Spock's location insofar as he (McCoy) lacks the medical knowledge about what the heck is happening (note that even in the 24th Century, the EMH says that the medical database is still very sketchy on what's really going on due to Vulcans being extra private about such things). McCoy no doubt wants to hurry Spock to Vulcan so actual Vulcan doctors who specialize in all things Vulcan can provide treatment that is beyond McCoy's own competence.

--Alex

I wouldn't say it's beyond his competence. Beyond his knowledge and experience, certainly. But McCoy is always portrayed as one of the most competent doctors in Starfleet. Once he knows what's going on, he generally can treat it effectively.

 

[HIjol]

Since the Train has pretty much left the track, I will offer my opinion on what made nuSpock better in NuMov02 vs. NuMov01:

Less kisses with NUhura.

Sorry, BIG fan of kisses, but not those kisses.

 

[Poltargyst]

Since the Train has pretty much left the track, I will offer my opinion on what made nuSpock better in NuMov02 vs. NuMov01:

Less kisses with NUhura.

Sorry, BIG fan of kisses, but not those kisses.

I didn't have a problem with them.

And referring to episodes/movies by number rather than name is silly. Now I have to remember the order of all 79 episodes?

 

[Greg Cox]

Since the Train has pretty much left the track, I will offer my opinion on what made nuSpock better in NuMov02 vs. NuMov01:

Less kisses with NUhura.

Sorry, BIG fan of kisses, but not those kisses.

I didn't have a problem with them.

And referring to episodes/movies by number rather than name is silly. Now I have to remember the order of all 79 episodes?

And TOS only ran three seasons. Now try to memorize the order of all seven seasons of TNG . . . and DS9 . . . and VOYAGER . ..

 

[LadyT'Anna]

In the first place, McCoy tells Kirk early on that Spock will die from a biochemical imbalance unless the Enterprise can reach Vulcan without delay, and Spock knows this

Actually, that must be the other way around. Sure, McCoy can tell that Spock is dying. But only Spock can claim that going to Vulcan would be of help! McCoy wouldn't have any basis for arguing that a biochemical imbalance will get better if Spock changes location, but he might have a reason to trust Spock on this. And the question then goes, is that trust misplaced?

In the second place, Spock doesn't tell Kirk or McCoy about the duel because he doesn't think there's going to be one, and he doesn't want to alarm them any more than he has done already.

Why wouldn't he want to alarm his friends? The sandworms are already out of the can, and Spock has every logical and emotional reason to heighten the urgency of his plea, with misleading half-truths if necessary.

Timo Saloniemi

Hm. I understand your logic, Timo. I guess I'm wondering why Spock would feel the need to mislead Kirk and McCoy in the first place. Kirk is Spock's closest friend, and despite McCoy's emotionalism acting as an irritant, Spock respects the doctor enough to invite him to stand with him at the wedding ceremony.

 

[HIjol]

Since the Train has pretty much left the track, I will offer my opinion on what made nuSpock better in NuMov02 vs. NuMov01:

Less kisses with NUhura.

Sorry, BIG fan of kisses, but not those kisses.

I didn't have a problem with them.

And referring to episodes/movies by number rather than name is silly. Now I have to remember the order of all 79 episodes?

And TOS only ran three seasons. Now try to memorize the order of all seven seasons of TNG . . . and DS9 . . . and VOYAGER . ..

Yes. This is a test. You have 10 minutes.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

I didn't have a problem with them.

And referring to episodes/movies by number rather than name is silly. Now I have to remember the order of all 79 episodes?

And TOS only ran three seasons. Now try to memorize the order of all seven seasons of TNG . . . and DS9 . . . and VOYAGER . ..

Yes. This is a test. You have 10 minutes.

Spock could probably do that.

 

[Albertese]

.....
I wouldn't say it's beyond his competence. Beyond his knowledge and experience, certainly. But McCoy is always portrayed as one of the most competent doctors in Starfleet. Once he knows what's going on, he generally can treat it effectively.

Knowledge and experience = competence. I'm not denigrating McCoy's skills when I'm saying his knowledge and experience is limited in certain areas. The same thing happened in The Undiscovered Country, where he lacked the knowledge and experience with Klingon anatomy and was unable to save Gorkon. At the trial, Chang was correct to point out that McCoy was incompetent where Klingon medicine was involved. Where he goes off the rails is in blaming McCoy's inability on either deliberate negligence or "age combined with drink" rather than the true cause, simply having not studied the subject.

Now, being incompetent about a given subject now does not mean a person cannot learn and gain competence in the future. I have no doubt that given time to study it and learn, McCoy is amply capable of learning about Vulcan (or Klingon) medicine. And, certainly, he knows enough about Vulcan physiology to competently handle Spock's check-ups, first aid, and even all the way up to open heart surgery on Sarek, but remain closed to the more esoteric nuances of, for instance, the plak tow.

Where was Doctor M'Benga when you needed him? He was trained in a Vulcan ward and might have been more knowledgeable about such things. (After "Amok Time," we eventually meet Dr. M'Benga in "A Private Little War." I assume he probably was not yet assigned to Enterprise at the time of Spock's ponn far. In fact, I wonder if the business with Spock and his weird medical requirements didn't get Kirk and McCoy talking about the need for a Vulcan trained physician on-board and they requested him specifically (or someone of his training profile.))

--Alex

 

[T'Girl]

The novelization said that the assassins were using an unusual type of phaser, and that's why McCoy's medical technics weren't working like they normally would. If the Klingon had been shot with a typical phaser, McCoy debateably would have been able to save him.

 

[Timo]

Using something exotic would be counterproductive for the conspirators: it would weaken the claim that "Kirk's men" killed Gorkon on a "Starfleet errand".

Now, using a setting that leaves corpses might be unusual in terms of how Starfleet wages war (Kirk used stun in "Errand of Mercy"!) or kills people (Kirk always uses the merciful make-disappear setting for that). But that would be necessary for the cabal - they would absolutely need corpses, not just for the psychological effect, but also because the evidence could not be based solely on the Klingon ship's surveillance system recordings. After all, those could be forged - and indeed would need to be forged, to cover up all the roles played by the cabalists themselves during the assassination (say, "Where is Chang?").

But we don't need to assume exotique in order to justify McCoy's failure. Where would he have learned Klingon anatomy? Certain interpretations of "Whom Gods Destroy" aside, it appears possible that there has never really been a Klingon-Federation confrontation on a scale that would leave Klingon corpses accessible to Federation scientists, and certainly there hasn't been one within living memory. OTOH, Klingons and Feds have never been in amicable enough terms to exchange medical data.

Sure, Earthlings once held Klaang for study... But that was before tricorders that can reveal the patient's anatomy at a glance and without invasive procedures.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Using something exotic would be counterproductive for the conspirators: it would weaken the claim that "Kirk's men" killed Gorkon on a "Starfleet errand".

Now, using a setting that leaves corpses might be unusual in terms of how Starfleet wages war (Kirk used stun in "Errand of Mercy"!) or kills people (Kirk always uses the merciful make-disappear setting for that). But that would be necessary for the cabal - they would absolutely need corpses, not just for the psychological effect, but also because the evidence could not be based solely on the Klingon ship's surveillance system recordings. After all, those could be forged - and indeed would need to be forged, to cover up all the roles played by the cabalists themselves during the assassination (say, "Where is Chang?").

But we don't need to assume exotique in order to justify McCoy's failure. Where would he have learned Klingon anatomy? Certain interpretations of "Whom Gods Destroy" aside, it appears possible that there has never really been a Klingon-Federation confrontation on a scale that would leave Klingon corpses accessible to Federation scientists, and certainly there hasn't been one within living memory. OTOH, Klingons and Feds have never been in amicable enough terms to exchange medical data.

Sure, Earthlings once held Klaang for study... But that was before tricorders that can reveal the patient's anatomy at a glance and without invasive procedures.

Hm. I don't know enough Klingon lore to be of much help here. I've seen multiple references to the death scream and also to the fact that the bodies of Klingon dead are considered merely shells. Worf mentions in DS9 that new-made corpses are guarded against predators for a short time, but I don't know what happens to the bodies after that.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Using something exotic would be counterproductive for the conspirators: it would weaken the claim that "Kirk's men" killed Gorkon on a "Starfleet errand".

Now, using a setting that leaves corpses might be unusual in terms of how Starfleet wages war (Kirk used stun in "Errand of Mercy"!) or kills people (Kirk always uses the merciful make-disappear setting for that). But that would be necessary for the cabal - they would absolutely need corpses, not just for the psychological effect, but also because the evidence could not be based solely on the Klingon ship's surveillance system recordings. After all, those could be forged - and indeed would need to be forged, to cover up all the roles played by the cabalists themselves during the assassination (say, "Where is Chang?").

But we don't need to assume exotique in order to justify McCoy's failure. Where would he have learned Klingon anatomy? Certain interpretations of "Whom Gods Destroy" aside, it appears possible that there has never really been a Klingon-Federation confrontation on a scale that would leave Klingon corpses accessible to Federation scientists, and certainly there hasn't been one within living memory. OTOH, Klingons and Feds have never been in amicable enough terms to exchange medical data.

Sure, Earthlings once held Klaang for study... But that was before tricorders that can reveal the patient's anatomy at a glance and without invasive procedures.

Timo Saloniemi

Hm. I don't know enough Klingon lore to be of much help here. I've seen multiple references to the death-scream as well as to the fact that the bodies of Klingon dead are considered merely shells. Also, Worf mentions in DS9 that new-made corpses are guarded against predators for a short time, but I don't know what happens to the bodies after that.

 

[The Old Mixer]

The novelization said that the assassins were using an unusual type of phaser, and that's why McCoy's medical technics weren't working like they normally would. If the Klingon had been shot with a typical phaser, McCoy debateably would have been able to save him.

Normally I'd dismiss that as a rationalization on the part of the writer, but it was the only time we ever saw phasers set to "bleed".

 

[HIjol]

Using something exotic would be counterproductive for the conspirators: it would weaken the claim that "Kirk's men" killed Gorkon on a "Starfleet errand".

Now, using a setting that leaves corpses might be unusual in terms of how Starfleet wages war (Kirk used stun in "Errand of Mercy"!) or kills people (Kirk always uses the merciful make-disappear setting for that). But that would be necessary for the cabal - they would absolutely need corpses, not just for the psychological effect, but also because the evidence could not be based solely on the Klingon ship's surveillance system recordings. After all, those could be forged - and indeed would need to be forged, to cover up all the roles played by the cabalists themselves during the assassination (say, "Where is Chang?").

But we don't need to assume exotique in order to justify McCoy's failure. Where would he have learned Klingon anatomy? Certain interpretations of "Whom Gods Destroy" aside, it appears possible that there has never really been a Klingon-Federation confrontation on a scale that would leave Klingon corpses accessible to Federation scientists, and certainly there hasn't been one within living memory. OTOH, Klingons and Feds have never been in amicable enough terms to exchange medical data.

Sure, Earthlings once held Klaang for study... But that was before tricorders that can reveal the patient's anatomy at a glance and without invasive procedures.

Hm. I don't know enough Klingon lore to be of much help here. I've seen multiple references to the death scream and also to the fact that the bodies of Klingon dead are considered merely shells. Worf mentions in DS9 that new-made corpses are guarded against predators for a short time, but I don't know what happens to the bodies after that.

The bodies are "...unceremoniously discarded...".

They are of no further use.

After the "staring in the lifeless eyes" part, and the "Death Howl" to warn the Klingon On Duty at the gates of Sto-vo-kor that a Klingon Warrior was coming, the show was pretty much over.

Qapla'!

cha ylghuS!!!

 

[Mudd]

Once Spock killed someone he didn't need to get laid so badly.

Pretty sure that he's American on his mother's side.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Once Spock killed someone he didn't need to get laid so badly.

Pretty sure that he's American on his mother's side.

I'd need to see his long form birth certificate.